My thoughts on an equal level of playing for all of us

[Sid]

Morning all

During our flying sessions over the past few months I have been picking up feelings of slight annoyance through to deep frustration over how some of us have been singled out, shot down or spotted way before we should by other flyers. I am not talking about the AI doing this, but other human flyers. It is fair to say that all of us have been flying together for many years so I think I am able to speak freely. We flew 46 together too and got used to a set of icons that did away with a lot of unrealistic indicators so I now think it is time to get that sort of set up in GBS.

I understand that there are flyers coming back to us and finding GBS something new and different and that is fully understandable so what I am suggesting is that we work towards a situation where we are all given a chance to fly more fairly and more realistically. There are flyers here that are more than capable of flying with limited icons and I think they should do so and there are also those that could work up to this position. Please note I am not saying that flyers should use the game setting that removes all icons (although that is what I am getting used to doing) because I am aware that an individuals' screen or eyesight can make spotting aircraft and ground targets difficult. As one who flys mostly ground attack it can be frustrating when I can't fly low to escape attacking fighters because I have a triangle permanently attached that says to fighters 'Here he is!!' I understand this is what happens when flyers use icons but for me, I am setting myself a challenge by switching them off. The only information I have displayed on screen is the small mini map (because pilots carry maps) and the technical information on the right because it allows me to see bomb and rocket settings for a short period before they disappear by default.

However, if we as a group use the Mods below:

1. we keep flyers' names off the screen
2. we keep other aircraft off maps and prevent the spotting of enemy aircraft when they are many kms away. This can be a particular PITA!
3. we keep aircraft (particularly enemy) out of view in the virtual sky until they are in a realistic spotting distance from in the cockpit ie. 10km
4. we still can hear AI tactical spotting information so enemy flights can be picked up by other aircraft not by map icons...much better I think

I suggest that we all work towards using these two Mods:

   Number one

Number two

 

I believe that most are using the first one. The second one works perfectly. When in use, on the minimap and briefing map a lot of us use in flight the only aircraft visible is the pilot's own so you can still use maps for navigation. No other aircraft appear on them at all and the first time you see them is when they get within 10k and their icon appears in the virtual sky. All in all, much more realistic, achievable and fun!! Would be nice to see more than seven downloads considering our numbers last night.....;)

I would like to see these Mods adopted as standard use for the Dogz.

What do you think?

Cheerzen

 

[delta7]

This is a tricky one , I understand frustrations as I often fly blue and bombers and the need to try to address some issues but I think that this sim is particularly bad for spotting dots. There are threads on the developers forums dedicated to this and many opinions on what is right but little agreement, so people choose the best options to compensate for the percieved difficulties.

 In my opinion the game engine is not optimised so very difficult to spot dots and that they tend to dissapear with different settings ;VR users seem to have a particular advantage and spot dots much easier. I believe they have to use a lower resolution but most choose to fly at higher resolutions as they believe it looks better.

Using  the icons mod,  I have flown right over planes and failed to see them on numerous occaisions and looked round and never spotted planes coming on my six as they dissapear with different zoom settings, so I value the use of the map.

Personally Im ok with leaving it to the individual to use what he likes, I dont think anyone here seeks an unfair advantage by using the map it just compensates for the games difficiencies.

[FoolTrottel]

3 hours ago, Sid said:

(...)

During our flying sessions over the past few months I have been picking up feelings of slight annoyance through to deep frustration over how some of us have been singled out, shot down or spotted way before we should by other flyers.

(...)

I do agree with the spotting challenges... but other than my own feelings, I have not picked anything up from others regarding any frustration ... (I must be dense ... lol)

And I'm with you on both mods, I got them both installed and running. Good idea to have these two.

[Friar]

I can't say I have noticed people being singled out - its usually me getting shot down early because i have put myself in a position making me a target.

I would support not having names (@painless - I did not know it was you until I got really close after spotting your icon - I had height and chased a red dot down). I may not have spotted you if not for the icon it has to be said.

I would support doing away with icons above planes, as Sid says it does give the game away.

I would plead for my plane only on the maps as I am useless at navigation.

To this end I am going to do what is required from my part to remove in-game icons, but it does need all of us to buy into it. (that is the buy in without spending money of course)

[Painless]

@Colin, don’t worry about that mate, it was exciting to feel your bullets penetrating my slender fuselage as I floundered around not knowing what to do or say 🤣
I agree with Sidly whole heartedly, ( now there is a surprise). We have all been doing this for so long now that there is no reason why we should not be using more realistic advanced settings to challenge ourselves. If it’s easy it’s boring. We don’t need no “radar” or stinking name and distance icons 🤪 It is about everyone having some successful missions and some perhaps not so. Any rules should be by the Dogz for the Dogz.

[fruitbat]

I support limited icons for planes and have been using that for months, rather than names for everyone, makes it much more entertaining imo. This is pretty much how we often ended up flying 46 in later years anyway (only have names at close range for friendlies).

Also just having our own plane on the map, which is what we used to do in 46 anyway. 

[Perfesser]

Over across the pond we often join a server with AI online to play. There are a few with icons (usually simplified engine management as well) and later you can up the game too others with no icons.

They're interesting objective based missions with the added  intrigue of the (very) occasional breather. A gaggle of Dogz would have no trouble controlling the sky and a dogfight gets everyone back in the action.

Shooting star server (Normal and expert servers) and the Unprofessionals come to mind immediately, I'm sure there are others

[Sid]

4 hours ago, Friar said:

I would plead for my plane only on the maps as I am useless at navigation.

Don't need to plead for that Friar, the intention is to keep individual 'Plane only' as that what the second Mod mentioned does. 

[delta7]

I must be thinking differently from most , while a lot in the squad are flying Sims like DCS and seem to be striving for harder settings and more realism, I just want it to be fun

In 46 the settings were not an issue as planes could be spotted much easier but even then I would not fly in the full real seow as it just wasn't fun for me

Everyone is free to chose what planes and how they fly the missions during the session and  there are options for one side to help protect the bombers.

 I don't think we should force people to  use the proposed mod as it won't compensate for the game issues or the advantages that VR users will have

[Painless]

Dave, are you ok with the “small coloured triangle” mod as many use already?As you know you can see it from miles away but no name or distance is shown. You also still have your plane only on the map so you don’t have to navigate. 
Also I would like to point out that flying more realistic settings or a more difficult sim like DCS is fun if that is what you like to do.

[delta7]

Painless

Sid is concerned about level playing field , fairness and realism but in limiting choice by using the map mod we will give advantage to others so where is the balance? And how many rules do we want/have   to follow to fly? The sunday and tuesday sessions were meant to be fun and inclusive, there are other nights and other sims that cater for those seeking more demanding settings.

the point I am trying to make is that we have always had choice in this squad, for example I use the small dot mod as thats what I like best. as I believe it is the right mix of realism for me and I accept the game limitations.

I have no problems with those that want to use some more difficult settings as they find it more interresting but it is not everyones preference. I just dont think we should be asking anyone to fly BOX with settings that are not fun for them. 

We are getting very good numbers on Sundays with current settings and Ithink  there are other more practical mission based solutions to the bombers getting beaten up rather than force people into these changes. 

Also who is to say how the mission generator will progress or what user missions will be available to counter Sids concerns? 

 

[Sid]

@Delta I think very much like you in that I want the flying to be fun, in fact that is my main focus. Ultimately, if you feel you want to fly with the settings you want then that is your choice.

I posted this topic to highlight an issue that is present in our flying together ie. names, icons and spotting, and in my opinion this issue takes some of the fun out of flying. In my first post I proposed that we adopt the Mods but there is no compulsion on anyone to do it, I can only suggest it. I'm not after flying with full real SEOW settings, that is a personal choice to have no speedbar and locked cockpit etc, I am suggesting that having planes visible on 'radar' via the maps is an immersion killer and takes away any element of surprise if someone is flying on the opposite side - this is what the second Mod gets rid of. Your plane is still visible on the maps so you can see where you are to navigate. There is some work involved to keep allies in view and know where they are because you can't see them on the map. 

Getting rid of the names would be a good idea because you are flying against an unknown pilot rather than a pilot with a known skill level...you will probably soon find out whether it was a mistake I'm sure. This is what the first Mod does.

With regard to VR advantage I don't know if that is true in my case. To use VR my resolution has been lowered so that the view I get to fly with is like a crap version of 46...ask Painless, he's seen it. Compared to flying without VR the quality of view is a backward step but I like the immersion. I have no idea if dots are easier to spot so I can't comment on that, there may be evidence to show they are but I haven't paid any attention to it and haven't changed settings to get a better dot view. I use the default settings and get what I'm given.

[Painless]

Dave, Sid has pretty much summed up my thoughts before I had chance to reply. If you fly with the small coloured triangle mod (is that what you mean by “small dot mod” ?) then excellent, that is what I would like to think everybody uses. Getting rid of the standard “radar” early warning on the map and name and distance icons really does level the playing field because as Sid says you don’t know who is flying the enemy planes you spot, you don’t even know if it’s a breather or AI initially . I don’t have everything turned of for full real yet like Sid because I would find that to be a guaranteed way of being shot down every time without seeing a thing, ( and that would be no fun either).
Like a handicap system such as in golf the less accomplished, (by that I mean old, blind, deaf or returning to flying after a long break), have the “Wonder Woman” standard settings and the more accomplished have more challenging settings, that is fine because it makes for a good and fair competition. What you can’t have is the top boys using easy settings to dominate. That would be unsporting. I think (correct me if I’m wrong Sidly) that is what Sid is getting at ?

 

[Sid]

24 minutes ago, Painless said:

Like a handicap system such as in golf the less accomplished have the “Wonder Woman” standard settings and the more accomplished have more challenging settings, that is fine because it makes for a good and fair competition. What you can’t have is the top boys using easy settings to dominate. That would be unsporting. I think (correct me if I’m wrong Sidly) that is what Sid is getting at ?

Painless, that is one of my points, yes

[delta7]

Thanks for the replies and for Sids clarification that it should be fun and that we can fly with the settings we were comfortable with

@Painless- I fly with small coloured dot or circle, no name etc, there are about 4 versions of the mod, triangle, small triangle, small dot, all black dots . I have just tested the triangle and it is easier to see planes but Im used to flying with dots from il246.

If the game improves plane spotting l will happily turn off the map and fly like 46 , but I am reluctant to do so before then. 

Anyway I think Iv ranted enough and will let others have their say 😉

[Painless]

Ok Dave, thanks for getting stuck into this debate mate, “it’s good to talk” 😉

[DD_Arthur]

So.....I won't have to stop wearing my wife's underwear whilst flying will I?

[Jabo]

With my dodgy eyesight I find it hard enough to pick up aircraft against a background as it is but in the interest of balance I am prepared to give it a try. That said, if I find that I have to turn back on any of these settings to give me any chance, I will not use any advantage unfairly.

Although I don't know for certain, does VR's lower resolution not lead to larger dots at long range compared to a higher resolution monitor display?

[Friar]

I try and spec my headset up for the eye candy and often do not spot the icons before others using a monitor

[Friar]

I dont have a MODS folder or JGMSE - could some nice fellow point me in the right direction. I have found the post with the icon modding files but have no where to put them?

 

[Sid]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

So.....I won't have to stop wearing my wife's underwear whilst flying will I?

You know the answer to that one 😏

[Sid]

12 minutes ago, Friar said:

I dont have a MODS folder or JGMSE - could some nice fellow point me in the right direction. I have found the post with the icon modding files but have no where to put them?

 

Have you downloaded the JSGME executable?

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Jabo said:

Although I don't know for certain, does VR's lower resolution not lead to larger dots at long range compared to a higher resolution monitor display?

Hmmmm......not a simple question to answer.  Firstly, as far as I'm aware the only game around where players gain a real benefit from lowering the games resolution in order to 'spot the dots' earlier is CLoD.The Great Battles series does not actually render a dot.  It delivers a teeny, tiny plane with it's own reflection model.  It's that reflection model that is the first indication of distant movement.

Despite many forum claims and heated debate, in GBS there is no way in game to improve spotting distances.  I and many others have tried 'em all and neither lowering resolution, nor lowering the gamma or using post-effects like SweetFX make any difference.    

Hardware, however might.   As far as I'm aware only Fruitbat has a high res monitor and VR so I'd be very interested to hear his opinion. 

All VR headsets have a higher resolution than 1080 monitors.  I'm using a Rift CV1 as is Friar and Crash.  Sid, Fenrir and Fruitbat are using the Rift S which has a slightly higher resolution than the CV1. 

Up until the release of version 4.004 I think it fair to say that under certain conditions - generally having the sun behind us and the approaching aircraft being below the horizon - both Crash and myself have been able to spot distant movement further out than anyone else.  Initially what we are seeing is reflected light from distant aircraft.  

Is this an advantage?   Well.....yes frankly. 😎

However,  something has changed with version 4.004 and I'll quote from Han's update notes

   8. Brightness and size of very distant aircraft LODs made more uniform (it differed too much on some aircraft)

and I fear our super powers are not as they were as I've not been able to spot anything dramatically far out lately.

The big, top ten advantages to using VR over a monitor are (in my opinion)

1]  Holy shit, I'm in a Spitfire!

Ditto for points 2 to 8

9]  Much better ability to judge distance - which leads to 

10]  Much improved gunnery accuracy.

Infact, check out my little streak in Flying Circus

http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/pilot/294/DD_Arthur/?tour=9

Other advantages?   Er.......

I'm using the tiny triangle in my icon mod. and I'm using the no other planes on the map mod 'cause Uncle Siddley told me to 

[Sid]

3 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

I'm using the tiny triangle in my icon mod. and I'm using the no other planes on the map mod 'cause Uncle Siddley told me to 

I'm laughing so much because no fecker else does as they are told.... 😀....apart from some....

[T_O_A_D]

I'll grab them I miss the old way of that I used to host at.

2000k aircraft type, 500k friendly pilot name, and you only on the mini map.

too bad we the server/host doesn't have the control like in 1946.