A Point of View

[DoubleTap]

"It really is an American thing, looking at the posts of our members, something that us tight spandex shorts wearing 'Brünos' over here in Europe, will never get."

What is "an American thing"?

I think we've seen quite a variance of opinion on this issue from the Yanks here, and unless I am mistaken, some of the Canucks agree with some of the Yanks about some things, and I think the Brits have some difference of opinion.

Let's not put each other into little boxes.

DT

[gec]

yes but only "yanks" have variance of opinion. the rest have only against opinion.

[GreyKnight]

What is "an American thing"?

Okay, okay, so I missed out North American thing, shoot me!

WHOOPS! Bad turn of phrase.

[Rattler]

I used to play Need For Speed quite a bit.

I do not support street racing.

I play Civ 4 from time to time.

I do not support nuking countries in order to take them over.

Except when India gets on your ass. Ghandi's all peace and cooperation at first, but when HE gets ahead and starts building the starship, he turns into a complete a-hole!

[BadAim]

The thing that really gets me is the sort of magical power so many people give to firearms. A firearm is a remote control drill, nothing more, nothing less, it has no power whatsoever to cause violence, or any other sort of crime. I have legally carried a pistol most days for more than 15 years, and I have never even CONSIDERED shooting anyone out of anger, even though I get just as pissed off at stupidity as the next guy. The reason for this? I'm a peaceful, law abiding citizen! Can you believe that?

In my state a concealed carry permit is required to transport a pistol in any manner. There are a couple of hundred thousand people in this state, who have said permits. To the best of my knowledge, no one with one of these has ever used their pistol to commit a crime. (now some have had their permits pulled for being stupid, but that's different from knocking off a liquor store or shooting someone for looking at your girlfriend). How does a rational thinking person not get that a criminal is a criminal, and an asshole is an asshole and having access to a firearm is not even relevant to the argument. If the criminal does not have access to a firearm he will use another weapon, or get a friend or two. Why? Because he is a freaking criminal, that's why!

While I think Ted is a little cowboy for my taste, I don't think he at any point intended to support Vigilante justice (though he kinda came off that way). The fact of the matter is that very few law abiding gun owners have that kind of attitude and next to none would engage in it. Why? Because their peaceful law abiding citizens!

Having the desire to be able to defend yourself efficiently does not make a person a vigilante any more than hanging around in a garage makes you a car.

Gec, just for the record, the barrel on my favorite carry gun is 3 inches. I assure you my dick is much bigger.

[DD_Arthur]

Gec, just for the record, the barrel on my favorite carry gun is 3 inches. I assure you my dick is much bigger.

Badaim, you will send me your invoicing address so I can bill you for a new keyboard won't you?

Just sprayed my bedtime cocoa all over it from laughing too much!

Here's my 2 cents worth anyway;

As a Brit. I'm very lucky to live in a country that by and large has very few problems with guncrime. We have some of the most restrictive firearms laws in the world. I, with the majority of my fellow countrymen, like it that way. For us

[T_O_A_D]

Not pointing a finger at just you GK but to all that posted in retort.

You guys put an awful lot in between the lines there.

Just like the anti gun people over here.

Twist it to your favor, and yell lunatic at gun owners.

No were did I say anything more than gun ownership.

I'm done in this before I cut myself out of some of your friendships.

We all have a right to an opinion, and some of us have a right to Bear arms.

Till us gun toting self righteous bastards come over to your land, or home, and stuff it in your face, you really have nothing to say that, holds any relevance to what I am able to do with one. Some of your lands Once welcomed us Yanks, and our weapons and ways to defend your county's right to try and tell us what to do 60 odd years later.

Remember that.

Now do some research into your own counties, Firearm manufacturing facilities.

Do the make and distribute these to the public either at home and abroad.

If so lobby against them in your own country.

The oddest thought I get from these conversations is.

We are all playing shooting games. Either from an aircraft of First Person shooter's.

How can one do that, and not in the back of their head support the thought of gun ownership?

If you truly have a conviction against it, then why delve into the dark of it and simulate and recreate it, for pleasure on the PC?

Oh I know, it's your right to due so!

Wow TOAD, that is some... assumption there. Just because I might enjoy blowing the head off some obnoxious teenager from Brentford, with a sniper rifle in the online game, "BOOM HEAD SHOT 3 : Return to Shit-hole-istan" does not make me want to take to the streets with a Barrett M82 sticking out of my backpack.

It really is an American thing, looking at the posts of our members, something that us tight spandex shorts wearing 'Brünos' over here in Europe, will never get.

[Perfesser]

I wonder if it isn't a symptom of our "urbanization".

Those of us who live in places where raccoons, porcupines, coyotes, possums and the like still make nuisances of themselves have always had guns around, see them as nothing more than tools.

MK1 Rodent Eliminator.

Throw in the odd hungry black bear and "self defence" takes on a whole new meaning. They can't be negotiated with, nor can they be rehabilitated.

In Canada you can at least still shoot a bear coming into your back door(don't think a door does anything but slow them down and piss them off) without having to prove your life was in danger, unlike a crook.

Once folks spend a generation or so in the city they seem to demonize those things of rural life as somehow "uncivilized".

You would not believe the crap I took from my city dwelling in-laws when I took my 12 year old daughter to a 2 day gun safety course.

I was teaching her to murder animals, how inhumane.

If they could see the path their hamburger took from birth to McVomits they might see hunters as far more humane than the factories that make those neat little supermarket packages. Just because it's out of sight doesn't mean it's OK. Veal anyone? I'll never touch the stuff.

If anyone should have the right to bear arms it is the Americans. They think ALL free men should have the means to deal with tyranny. Noble stuff,

How many others would invade your country and then give it back?

I do firmly believe though that once people got their exposure to guns from television instead of their father it all went downhill.

[Squawk]

After reviewing the video, and reading (and re-reading) the posts,

[BadAim]

I would also point out that the VAST majority of gun use in the united states consists of making holes in pieces of paper. This pastime is not in any way any more violent than playing a video game that includes guns. This is the point that Toad was making. I can't make sense of any other interpretation.

As for myself, I determined long ago that if I had a skill that could prevent my self or my family from being murdered for some scumbags pleasure, then I was derelict in my duties to them and the community that I serve (as a citizen of a country where I am a citizen and not a subject).

All of the people that I make contact with on any given day will never be any safer. Ever. I don't really care if anyone else believes it. It is none the less a fact.

P.S. I don't believe that the second amendment only speaks of the right to bear arms against the Government (although that is a big part). There must be an element of bearing arms in SUPPORT of ones country in time of war and in support of ones community in times of unrest. The right to self defense would have never been questioned by the founding fathers.

[Squawk]

On a personal note, I shall throw my hat into the ring.

I am a self proclaimed 'Redneck'.

[JensenPark]

Man, I call FDR a commie and no one debates that?

Just silly gun stuff...geez.

[DD_Arthur]

How about if you accused him of being a transvestite? Would that help?

[DoubleTap]

"Innuendo and broad generalizations, as well as bringing up past events that have little bearing upon the topic at hand tend to place the open discussion under a dark cloud."

I agree, which is why I normally felt uncomfortable, or maybe I should say formally uncomfortable, discussing political things on the boards, other than mocking France (Sorry to any Frenchmen among us I've forgotten about).

[Tribunus]

Man, I call FDR a commie and no one debates that?

My Grandmother used to spit on the ground at the mention of his name.

But she would also get agitated if you mentioned Generals Grant or Sherman.

[Enforcer57]

For our Brit pals (whom I think VERY highly of, even that backshooter Painless guy), a little tale of an old rifle I once owned.

During WW1, the Brits were short on rifles (and everything else), so Remmington manufactured a new rifle for them in .303 called the P-14 Enfield. When we entered the war, they were also produced in our calibre 30-06 (allied logistics were a bitch in both wars), to supplement our 1903 Springfields. They were GREAT rifles, very sturdy and reliable.

I wound up with a 1918 mfg P-17 20 yrs ago in 30-06 that was in magnificent shape for an incredible price. I just wanted it, didn't need it, but it was a piece of history and a great weapon-had to have it.

I couldn't figure why it had a it had a Brit proof mark and why the for-end of the stock was painted red though. I found out that it had was one of many such rifles sent to England during 1940-41 as England faced invasion. It seems that the home guard was having to guard ports and such with pitch forks etc, and the army was also short on arms. Churchill made a plea to our semi-commie pres (JP, you kill me) for firearms; even civilians were donating rifles to send to England.

So these P-17s got shipped over, and looking identical to the .303 P-14s they were still using, had to have a quick ID feature so proper ammo could be issued. Mine was one shipped back post war. YOu guys take really good care of weapons btw.

Just another of the countless unforeseen problems such gun control policies have caused over the decades. I know you are not facing invasion now, but it's just another outcome of such badly thought out policies.

BTW, thanks for holding the line until we were forced into it, and for the HUGE casualties you guys suffered. I would have donated it if I'd been around then. Hell, I'd probably have sneaked thru the canadian border and joined RAF.

[Sid]

My view, as an Englishman.

There is still an ancient bye-law that decrees that, in a particular area of the English/Welsh borders, on a Sunday an Englishman is required to conduct archery practice with his longbow. If an arrow should overfly the river Wye and strike an unfortunate Welshman then that is unfortunate but, tough. The Englishman is required to maintain his skills should the need ever arise for him to be mobilised in the nation's standing army and that is the priority. This, I believe, has been the basis for the running of archery and gun clubs although the emphasis is now on pleasure and the potential for learning and developing a new skill.

There was a time when my Dad owned a rifle, a .22" bolt action BSA. He used it for keeping down rabbits on local farms. In my teens and early twenties I wanted to keep it and follow in Dad's footsteps however it didn't happen mainly because in the 1980s I didn't couldn't get a licence to keep it at home. In the end I stored it in the armoury of the cadet building I ran but, because it was not issued by the MoD it wasn't serviced by the armourers so ended up being disposed of due to being non-standard. We also had a couple of donated Martini action breech loading .22" that went the same way.

The point of that is to show that unless you have a very good reason to own a rifle in the UK you just cannot keep one now. The tradition of an Englishman being skilled and practised in the use of weapons has long gone unless you are in the Forces or an armed police officer.

I am lucky in that I have been able to practice shooting as a skill for a very long time. I started in the cadets at 13 with a .22" No.8 rifle and progressed and developed using Lee Enfield .303" No.4s, 7.62mm FN (equivalent) Self Loading Rifles, Stirling sub-machine guns and finally onto the L98 A1 5.56mm cadet equivalent of the current SA80 - basically adapted to load single shot instead of burst or fully auto (since Michael Ryan shot and killed in Hungerford in the '80s no-one over here can own or fire a rifle capable of firing rounds other than single-shot - semi or fully auto private weapons are illegal although Army cadets can fire the fully auto Light Support Weapon (LSW) under strict conditions). I am confident that if shown to handle a weapon correctly and taught how to use it properly it is a confidence builder and produces skills and disciplines that are transferrable to other areas. I coach 13 - 18 year old Army cadets now and enjoy the occasional shot myself, so in effect I am carrying on the English tradition of preparation and skill building. Suits me fine.

Earlier in this thread the British small arms industry was mentioned. The British Army is updating the cadet L98 series to the A2 standard. A point of interest is that, along with the new series of LSW and due to reliability issues, it has been heavily modified prior to introduction by German small arms manufacturers.....ah well, there's progress.    

[T_O_A_D]

One thing for sure, is the thought that us as a people could up rise and over throw our Government with our hunting rifles is insane.

In today's world unless our Military was strongly leaning on the peoples side the civilians would be nothing more than a nuisance.

It's not the late 1700's anymore, the Red coats lost control of us only due to logistics of the time.

It's sad though they only gave us our freedom, and our respect at the end of a rifle.

One of the main reasons of the 2nd Amendment.

For my fellow Yanks, there is no greater fan of my own nation than me, but it makes me physically cringe when we throw up in Brits and Canadians faces our war efforts and sacrifices, forgetting who was in it first, and for a desperate time alone, holding the fort, while we tried to figure out what to do until the Japanese and Germany made the decision for us.

[DoubleTap]

One thing for sure, is the thought that us as a people could up rise and over throw our Government with our hunting rifles is insane.

In today's world unless our Military was strongly leaning on the peoples side the civilians would be nothing more than a nuisance.

Sorry, I don't agree with this at all.

[T_O_A_D]

One thing for sure, is the thought that us as a people could up rise and over throw our Government with our hunting rifles is insane.

In today's world unless our Military was strongly leaning on the peoples side the civilians would be nothing more than a nuisance.

Sorry, I don't agree with this at all.

[Rattler]

Ah, well. I guess that it's difficult to carry on a discussion that is not face to face over a topic such as this. Too bad.

Glenn, I very much appreciate your view and opinion expressed in this thread. It is very close to me, as a historian and Social Studies teacher here in Canada. I would have liked to continue this, but I think that it will just cause more problems.

I very much appreciate the United States, and everything that it was founded on and stands for. It is a shame that it gets vilified for as much as it does in the world, but at the same time, as the most powerful nation on the planet, you are bound to attract the attention of critics. It's much easier to hide from the rest of the world when they don't realize that you exist!

[Zooly]

might I just add:

[JensenPark]

Pete's right in that it is difficult to carry on an on-line discussion over such views...too easy to misinterpret comments.

Like when I say that DoubleTap is a gun-toting anarchist.

[DoubleTap]

might I just add:

[erco]

Over on the Ubizoo forums at the moment Erco is conducting a similar kind of debate about President Obama's healthcare proposals. I am agog.