1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 8, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 8, 2016 This suggestion was initiated by Ovy, and Painless and me are cooperating here, as to see whether we can setup some form of training, where us IL2 pilots can improve on our air-to-air fighting skills... Now it's not our goal to setup a surrogate for Joint Ops - that'd be a bit too much - but we do find a dedicated and serious approach is needed here. So, should you be interested, we do need you to show up fresh and sober (clean underware too!) whenever a traning session is on. Here's the initial idea for setup, it's not final yet. Four chapters of Wingman Tactics: 1 - Dealing with basics ACM, The flight envelope, a plane pros and cons etc. 2 - 2 versus 1 3 - 2 versus 2 4 - Escort tactics, Air Superority (Possibly into Air War Tactics and Strategy, though that migh be a bit too much / too deep) How many sessions one chapter will take is also unknown yet, but it's not to be as extended as JO was (5 sessions per chapter) Sessions will be held outside the normal 1946-coop-windows! Probably on a Saturday afternoon GMT, but that's not fixed yet. The idea is that if you sign up, you need to roll onto all four chapters, completing each with a good result, before moving on to the next. (How that is going to be achieved still has to be determined!) Ideally, you will be flying as a fixed pair, you will be training with the same wingman as much as possible. Besides pil2ots who want to be trained, the training will also be requiring some experienced pil2ots to join, who know what it is all about, as we will be needing observers, pil2ots who can judge the performance of others, and who can tell the trainees which of their actions were good, and which require improvement. Also, some capable fighter pilots that can play the role of opposition are needed. This post here just to try and get an idea of how many of us would be joining a training like this. So, who would like to participate? As a Trainee? As as an Observer? As an Opponent? As a Trainer? As a Knowledge base to setup/fine tune the training? Note: One cán participate in multiple roles, though that's mainly for the latter four... though this line up of roles may be way too large and overcomplicating things... lol Note: Trainees need to be dedicated 100%, the other roles may be filled in more freely, but that will surely depend on the numbers interested! Feel free to reply ... but keep any ideas and suggestions to a minumum for now, once there's sufficient interest, we will press on, and come up with a more detailed plan and planning... Yours Truly, Team DD_Rusty (Currently DD_Ovy, DD_Painless and DD_FT) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I know I need a lot of help here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2. Administrators Jabo Posted January 8, 2016 2. Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2016 Depending on when/where/how often, I'd be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum DD_Fenrir Posted January 8, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'd be interested to be trained to instructor status and participate in forming the syllabus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfesser Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I will try to attend and assist. GK and I have been doing this for a while now. One of the hardest parts is simply station keeping and keeping eyes on your partner. Practice this exhaustively till it's second nature before you consider trying to fight as a pair. Basic formation flying will keep you in the right position to react to heading changes while keeping formation as a fighting pair. Once an engagement begins, wing will normally slide into trail formation with the leader for follow up shots. We don't usually fly as wing and leader. Our roles will change as the situation dictates. For instance if wing spots something of interest and the I can't spot it I'll announce "you have lead". His primary job is then to keep eyes on the target and move us into position while mine is to watch our surroundings. First tasks. Designate a leader for that flight. He will call the play and give power settings. Power must be conservative, it takes a lot of extra power to catch up if behind. Wing will fly at the leaders 4 or 8 but much farther apart than you're used to. At least 1km separation in the "looking for bad guys" phase. Wing must be in position such that leader can clearly see behind wings tail for a considerable distance. If you have poor vis to the rear the wing may need to be farther ahead or away to see properly. Assume wing will fly at the 4 o'clock position. Leader is scanning the sky from 11 to 5 oclock, looking past the wingman and clearing his 6. Wing is looking forward also but primarily past the leader from the 12 to 7 position. This lets both guys watch their position in formation as well as their sector. Do some basic turns. Tac turn - a hard 90 degree or more change in direction. Lead calls "tac turn left". Pilot on the outside of the turn goes first. As he crosses the tail of the other plane the second pilot also turns, maintaining separation. Hook turn - more leisurely turn. Lead calls "hook turn left 45 degrees" Usually less than 90 deg but can for more. Both gently turn same direction. Combat reverse. Usually done when a contact is spotted behind. " Reverse GO" Both planes turn toward each other , crossing over and coming out in the opposite direction. That should be enough to get you in the air and started. Just fly some basic navigation stuff with turns then go have some fun and the wing will just come in trail for attacks and STAY there. If you get separated FIX IT. 4fWe did this for about a year before it became easy........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 OK Gentlemen We have a training session today 12~14 UTC , Painless will be instructor. Sorry for the short notice on timing , we'll try better next time ... First wing enlisted is FT & Ovy, the more the merrier Object of this session: 2 vs 1 , same planes (A6M Zero) , enemy has advantage. Measurable result : destruction of EA with maximum 1 casualty for the wing. Time 10 ~15 mins from merge. Debrief. Any other pilots attending as wingman or else will play the aggressor or wingman (if needed) FT please set up the map we used for TopGun, looks fine as merge takes place in a couple of minutes. Thank you all ~S~ Ovy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum Sid Posted January 9, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 9, 2016 I'd like to join in, will try to get on today even for an hour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 9, 2016 Author 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 9, 2016 OK Gentlemen (...) FT please set up the map we used for TopGun, looks fine as merge takes place in a couple of minutes. Thank you all ~S~ Ovy Would love to do that Ovy, but ... I aint got it, and can't find it anywhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2. Administrators Jabo Posted January 9, 2016 2. Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2016 Can an ntrk be recorded with sound? For those that can't make it, It might make instructive viewing, I can't do this afternoon in any case - too many jobs to I also would need to do section 1 first I believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 9, 2016 Author 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 9, 2016 Next session: Saturday january 16th 14:00 - 16:00 GMT A report of the first session will follow ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Gentlemen , thank you all who joined the first session and sorry for the time misfit ... A special thanks to Painless who stayed with us despite family commitments - i hope the old man liked our show ) Keep looking for the thread - there will be more info and materials for the ones involved ~S~ Ovy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 9, 2016 Author 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 9, 2016 Session 1. Basic Wingman tactics: FFA Islands, DF, Fifty Fuel Training Pair is flying 109-F4, 1941, spawning Six O’clock base. (Airstart at 1km, hdg 0, speed 250kmh) Opponent spawns at 8 o’clock base. (Airstart at 1km, hdg 75, speed 250kmh) Observer(s) Spawn in at 12 o‘clock base. (On the ground) All record N-tracks (Assign key to start quick recording), once a fight is over and deemed good for review, all disconnect and timely replay the track. Review with observer – what went wrong where? Fight will be repeated if lessons learned are clear to Trainees. 2 vs 1 - Same aircraft. Opponent at 2km, Pair is at 1km. Fly towards eachother, the opponent Attacks from above, the pair defend. 2 vs 1 - Opponent in an I-153 at 1km - vs Pair at 2km. Meet over center island, the Training Pair is attacking the opponent. 2 vs 2 - Opponents in an I-153 at 1km - vs Pair at 2km. Meet over center island, the Training Pair is attacking the opponent. At C. we decided to split the TS channels. This is free to decide for training Pair, though it is highly recommended that once reviewing a track and starting a new fight, all are in the same channel J The three fights took us two hours... Correct tactics to be used / what is to be learned: The pair keep defensive positions, keep an eye out and warn each other to keep from getting hit by the aggressor. This should lead into a situation where gradually the aggressor looses his energy, and the pair can then execute simultaneous attacks from different angles. The pair should dive attack on the opponent, keeping up speed, if #1 cannot get a firing solution due to evasive actions, #2 probably will. Same as B, where the pair should quickly knock one of the opponents out of the fight via method B. and then the other. =========================================== FT’s experiences with opponent #1 being Dizzy (aka ametzeala) FT: First off, Dizzy is a good pilot. He knows how and when to move his a/c in what direction, is a pretty good shot as well. He’s a very worthy opponent for this training. For me, the applied manouvres made complete sense once applied. Me and Ovy as a team need a some tuning, as for me extending is like exteeeeeeeeeeeeeending, whereas for Ovy it is exteeending. In the end it meant that I was usually safe and high (yeah, up to at 3800m unable to spot anyone anymore) and he was tangling with the opposition down there somewhere very low J. We got separated too often, and were too far away from each other. Better communication between him and me is also needed. Loved this. Good show. (Ovy, can you now post your thoughts please?) (Painless, can you please check, correct and add missing stuff to the tactics bit?) (Attached is the map used. Well, no, it is a derivetive of it, but is should do if you want to familiarize) BWT 01 - TrainingIslands.mis BWT 01 - TrainingIslands_ru.properties Attached here is the one good track I made, if you watch me, you can see I need better shooting ... and at 5:15 I made the mistake to dive/turn in again, where Ovy was still chasing Dizzy, I loose way too much energy, and give Dizzy the opportunity... w00t. Next tries were much more succesful, though I have no recordings of those.. lol Oh, and, BTW, I love how we are doing this currently: Just not overthink it, have the right people at the right number at the right time there, and we get somewhere! Please do note that it may become a mess later, I can imagine the next session where we create the second lesson, while others may be doing their first lesson. No worries its all good. WMT-001-A-Dizzy-Ovy-FT.ntrk @Jabo, Sorry, no TS sound recorded! @Perfesser, your words are the wisest, we do not really train for them, we do find out we need improvement though! But, as we are the DangerDogz... there's just too much sense and logic in your aproach, we'd stop being DD's should we train and fly having that all under control! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta7 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Nice idea, wish I could take part but not suitable time and I can't commit to regular sessions, I have tried this a few times and found this helpful http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_013a.html S Delta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 ~S~ All ! And welcome to the show... Guys i'm really sorry - my record of our 2 vs 2 is lasting just some seconds , must have hit the wrong button at the wrong time . So , check before coming to the session , the Start / stop recording track ,advising to have a twin keys combination so you cannot stop it by depressing one key (accidentally) FT - you'll get my message by e-mail , no need to post it here; anyway from the first to the last mission i saw a big difference - remember the last was 2 vs. 2 Going back to the scope of the training - first one was good , but we're not here for fun ,so i will call out the rules so we can measure our objectives: - dogfights 2 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 are lasting 15 mins. from spawning - that is instructor's job ( sorry Mr. P ...) - if the wing kills the aggressor with max. 1 of the wingmen loss it is a WIN (at the end of 15 mins) - if aggressor is not killed during this time HE is a winner - both members of the wing will act as Leader - instructor can call it off any time upon judgement of the situation - if other pairs will shpw up , we'll take turns in the fight , hence the 15 mins mission time. The pair off can fly as aggressor if needed. - a quick debrief after each fight (max. 5 mins) - ALL viewers and instructor to participate , instructor can ask viewers on what went wrong / good - at current time we have 2 wings enlited ( Ft & Ovy and Crash & Sid) , if anyone is still interested should come formed up , but we will limitate the number of wings to 3 - time imposed measure. If i may suggest all pairs should try to fly / practice together during week prior to Saturday show. Since the first round wasn't very conclusive here is the next one : - 2 vs 1 in same aircrafts, EA in advantage ( at leat 2 missions each wing) - 2 vs 1 - Wing in 109 , EA in I 153 - or similar -(at least 2 missions each) - 2 vs 2 - free fight same plane set ( not to be accounted at this stage on roster...) for a bit of fun... Instructor might ammend my schedule . We would NOT move to the next stage ( 2 vs 2 development) until we're all happy (and score ) the 2 vs 1 ~S~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum Painless Posted January 10, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks for pushing this idea Ovy, I know it is not the first time ! Hopefully everybody who showed up got something from the session and enjoyed it. As we discussed I can talk a much better dogfight than I can fly these days so getting Tom involved would make good sense. This would also free me up to join in with the flying ; ) I hope all participants watching the track of the previous fight whilst synchronised on TS so it can be discected live so to speak found it helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfesser Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 After the first session you quickly learn that when fighting together there's no time to learn to fly together. All the formation flying that keeps you as a pair in combat must be automatic before any enemies get into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 ~S~ Gentlemen To whom it may concern FT and i put together some training which starts one hour before our regular DDz show on Tuesday , and hope to do the same Thursday ( FT you approve it?) .The goal is the two of us fly and fly again as a pair, "bonding" - like Perf said hereabove. Crash / Sid , if you can join please let us know , so we can prepare in advance the server missions ( setting human /AI etc.) Also valid for everyone who wants to come, doesn't have to be on a regular basis , since this is sort of "homework" practice. Come in and play another wing or single aggressor..But please post here if coming. Next "official" session: Saturday january 16th 14:00 - 16:00 GMT under the scrutinizing eye of mr. P and hopefully Fen as well... ~S~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 14, 2016 Author 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 14, 2016 Sorry, I probably can't make it that early today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Hi Ovy I cant make it today but should be good for next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta7 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I'll be there today, can play aggressor\target if required Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Thanks everyone who showed up Saturday. This session FT &myself did various 2 vs 2 against enemy wing consisting of DIzzy & Dave , with Painless setting up the "menu". Energy fighters were used instead of turn'n'burn ones ( P47 & Fw190) with the scope of observing how to act on both offensive and defensive. Also energy vs. turn ( Fw190 vs Spit Mk IX) in order to practice defensive crossings with snapshots. On offensive we used the two basic tactics: A) tight formation attacking one enemy element both at the same time trying to make a kill and transform the fight into 2 vs.1 and each of us going for one enemy simultaneoulsy trying to give the enemy no freedom of movement Good fun chaps ! Personal notes: - flying the formation seems easier for me but still hard to regroup sometimes after defensive maneuvers especially - unless having the upper hand (i.e. a better plane with superior flying specs) and a much "honed" wing i tend to favor sticking with the lead and try to take out one enemy first ; the second tactic requires extremely good situational awareness at all times , keeping an eye on your target AND on wingman . - my gunnery sucks.... FT i'll be on TS tomorrow one hour earlier than DDz Tuesday show (18.00 UTC), anyone else who want to join are more than welcome. ~S~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum Painless Posted January 18, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 18, 2016 We all agreed that accurate first time gunnery was a bit of a problem. Easy enough to practice that ; ) Well flown chaps, hope you didn't mind the repetition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum FoolTrottel Posted January 18, 2016 Author 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 18, 2016 (...) Well flown chaps, hope you didn't mind the repetition. I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition I did not mind the repitition 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovy Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 So what do you have in mind for next session Painless ? We can do some practice in advance ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1. DDz Quorum Painless Posted January 18, 2016 1. DDz Quorum Share Posted January 18, 2016 303 caliber snap shot gunnery practice 1 vs 1 dogfight, 10 minute/ amunition limit, altitude advantage and disadvantage scenario : ) Advantage try to maintain Energy, disadvantage try to bleed opponents energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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