Dangerdogz V 352nd March 5th 2022 DEBRIEF

[Parts]

I would like to open up a conversation around the last night  match with 352nd. I think that this could be a good place for us all to contribute to the debrief. 

The point of this, for me, is all about learning to improve. It is definitely not about pointing any fingers at individual performance. It will be important to get a perspective from both ground and air crews.

So, please allow me to get the ball rolling.

Things I am not clear on:

• The number of 352nd tanks on the ground and planes in the air.
• The number of multicrew tanks on each team

Opening moments of the match:

• The initial brief on movements and goals was explained
• We made good progress to the first flag (Railway) 
• Communications worked well between ground and air and all tank crews had free range

The main segment of the match:

• After taking the first flag we got pinned as we looked to move to the factory
• After that first few minutes self deployment surfaced and the CS (Command Structure) went out of the window
• There were moments where TS was so busy I wanted to turn it off as I could not hear any one specific conversation just a mush of noise
• The commander lost control of ops so the team did the best they could from that point on

Having had a brief chat with @Painless about air ops it was clear that air ground targets are very hard to engage in a built up areas. Targets could be acquired but by the time you have come around for final runs the targets had just turned left or right into streets between buildings and disappeared from view. 

There were some very high quality kills made by the majority of the Dogz, some more openly celebrated than others. There was only one blue on blue also to be commended. 

For whatever reason the tactics chosen didn't feel like they worked (discuss please).

What do we need to do to improve ????? I have my views on this but would like to hear others too please! One such thought from me is that perhaps we should have split into pairs right from the off. Each pair being given a flag to take. Moving makes you an easy target, as we know. SO once the 352nd had dug themselves in, they only had to wait knowing that we had to appear at some point. 

At a point Sid and I ended up single crewed. I found it very difficult trying to multitask across the full range of requirements, including commander's role. 

One last thing from me - Thank you everyone for hanging in there through what must have felt pretty frustrating at times. Let's hope that this debrief post brings plenty of feedback and that we can learn from it and turn the tables for next time. 

Salute.

[Painless]

Thanks Parts, looking at the in game messages whilst flying it was disturbing at one point to see Deacon kill 4 of our tanks in very quick succession! I believe that was at a point where 352nd had taken all of the objectives and knew that there was only one route to cover for our incoming tanks, a bit of a turkey shoot for a stationary well concealed tank picking out moving enemy tanks in relative low cover.

We already know what a huge advantage it is to be waiting, stationary, spotting and destroying  moving targets. So it is a question of somehow setting the “ambush ?” first as a tactical imperative if possible.
The boys in the air did a great job of hammering air opposition but as has been said, ground attack against moving tanks in a built up area was almost impossible. It seemed like the 352nd had already agreed to turn into a side street if attacked from the air knowing the buildings would render a bombing attack run ineffective, it worked !

The concept of the match is a great one and good fun BUT, if we want to win we would have to take it a bit more seriously and prepare properly,( I am guilty on both counts btw), Points wise we won but that was not the criteria agreed, so we lost…… we will win the rematch though right boys ?!!

[Friar]

I would just like to say thank you to all those that took part and played it in the spirit to which it was intended.

The only thing I would like to ask for different next time is to turn off externals. If you are holding an ambush position, it makes it very easy to see what was coming down the road or round a blind corner, not saying that is what they did, but was a possibility.

I would also like to thank Parts and Fenrir for stepping forward and volunteering to take control of the respective units, and agree, especially with the tanks, what was a difficult job.

Would have been good to have a few more players but Life V1.0 gets in the way all too often!

Salute

Friar

 

[FoolTrottel]

I've had too many cases where I could successfully sneak up to the flank of a non-suspecting Sherman close to a flag, damaging/killing it, only to find out the flag was still out of reach, as there always seemed to be yet another Sherman taking me out... 

It felt they had many more tanks running than we had. No idea if that really was true, it felt that way!

 

I am no good at tactics... can't say much about it, apart from the fact I need clear and simple instructions 

 

[Friar]

If I recall from looking at their TeamSpeak they did have more players than us in total and if the air war was quiet then, yes, they focused on the ground so we were outnumbered I suspect.

[Crash]

Sorry that I missed this, it sounds like it was fun. Apart from being killed. Thats not much fun.

[Parts]

@Friar @FoolTrottel @Painless I am looking forward to hearing feedback from all of the participants of last nights duck shoot (I mean match 😁)

I think Les it quite correct in her feedback. Sitting still in a bush whilst (Friar too is correct) looking from externals would have been a pleasing position to be in!

With regards to the tanks and their capabilities or resilience to hits. The Tiger didn't really feel like it had an advantage! When I swapped to a PzIII and then IV I realised this. Yes the Tiger may be provided additional protection and perhaps it was hit by more than one tank at once. 

Definitely for me the single crew moment was a low moment. I had a perfectly good set of 2 Sherman's sitting behind a building watching a flag. I was in a tricky location on the corner of the building. In multicrew, as I rolled forward the gunner would have rotated the turret to align with the target. In single crew you obviously need to roll, stop, change positions from commander to gunner, turn the turret, aim and fire!. It all took just a little too long to make it viable. I got one Sherman but the other got me (in a PzIII) 

[Bob]

Would suggest limiting flyers as the only advantage they can give is spotting for groud attack, in order to win we need more feet on the ground, as they outnmbered our tanks making it easier for them to keep retaking the flags

[Parts]

I was wondering how it would be for air support if we used a more rural environment. Prohorovke for example. 

[Painless]

14 hours ago, Parts said:

I was wondering how it would be for air support if we used a more rural environment. Prohorovke for example. 

That would make a huge difference, for both sides !

[Sid]

Few thoughts....

It was a great evening, I enjoyed it  and would do it again....and again....

Vehicles

Both sides balanced. Tiger is appropriate and should be limited, it's main gun is a great advantage.

Map

Great for the task as it was meant to be street battles. Aircraft had trouble spotting, vehicles ambushed. Probably reality.

Objectives

Having played it now I think the Germans are at a disadvantage due to the placement of the objectives. The objectives south of the river are too far way for the Axis to consider given the time it would take to get there whereas once north of the river the Allies don't have far to travel to capture the town ones. Allies placing a tank covering the river bridges could maintain the two objectives there and also prevent Axis trips south of the river. I think they had 3 easier objectives...the 2 south of the river and the Western Approaches due to travel distance and time.

Pre match briefing  

Excellent. All things covered.

Gameplay

Definitely consider turning off outside view, this gives a good advantage to those using it. Now both teams know what to expect, we need a level playing field.

Comms

Didn't work especially well for Parts as I think that the setup we agreed on ie. tactical talk only, went out of the window very quickly. For this to work we can't resort to usual Dogz banter. Put this in with the tactics and we made life very difficult for ourselves. As command tank, Part's definitely needs an extra crew member as gunner.

Tactics

As with any plan, it usually fails on first contact. The match was no exception and the fact that it didn't work for us isn't down to Parts' intentions. I would love to have seen pairs working together but it didn't happen. We made life very difficult for ourselves as soon as some Dogz started to self deploy...I did it after a while when it was time for a respawn as I could see we didn't have any objectives under control and the time was ticking away, hence my 2 attempts at the Western Approaches - although travel time here was a serious disadvantage. Did we have too many aircraft? Did they have less aircraft and boosted tank numbers?

Keep the comments coming...it can only help

 

[FoolTrottel]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:01 PM, Parts said:

(...) In single crew you obviously need to roll, stop, change positions from commander to gunner, turn the turret, aim and fire!. It all took just a little too long to make it viable. I got one Sherman but the other got me (in a PzIII) 

Not really.

You can drive from the gunner's gunsight, move, steer, fire. For sure, it's not ideal as view wise you cannot see the building's corners and stuff, but it can be done. It's my preferred way of sneaking through the streets... Whilst driving like that, better not rotate the turret, it will throw you off ...

 

 

[FoolTrottel]

One thing I realized later: We had to simply go for the bridge, and confront them there, in the streets, avoiding them big open space between factory and railyard... 

[Parts]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:10 PM, FoolTrottel said:

One thing I realized later: We had to simply go for the bridge, and confront them there, in the streets, avoiding them big open space between factory and railyard... 

Timing is the art of comedy

On 3/7/2022 at 6:08 PM, FoolTrottel said:

Not really.

You can drive from the gunner's gunsight, move, steer, fire. For sure, it's not ideal as view wise you cannot see the building's corners and stuff, but it can be done. It's my preferred way of sneaking through the streets... Whilst driving like that, better not rotate the turret, it will throw you off ...

 

 

You are talking to someone who doesn't single crew very often. Picking it up in the middle of a match, I realised later, wasn't the smartest move for me.