Re: @Falconise - Overclocking advice

[Blairgowrie]

Finally got the new Artic Cooler installed. What a beast to get in there! I had to take off the fan to line up the 4 rubber screws and get it installed. But I think it is secure and the temps are definitely lower.

Could you please give me some advice on how to oc an Asus P5E, Falconise? The E8500 is currently running at stock 3.1728 MHz. I would like to take it up to maybe 3.5MHz on air cooling then benchmark frame rates at various settings to see what happens.

Many thanks

[Blairgowrie]

Some screenies might help.

[Snacko]

How do you get that first screenshot BG?

[Fireman]

2 different apps:

1st is

[Snacko]

Thanks.. I had cpu-z, but had not tried cpuid.

[Jabo]

Yep use CPUID myself - nice little app.

[Falconise]

The good thing is that fan is super easy to remove and put back on. After doing it a few times, I am sure anyone could do a re&re in less than 30 seconds. As long as the fins are lined up, it snaps on with such dexterity and lack of force that you'd think it wasn't on properly. To take it off, just disconnect the fan tail and pry one side's clip up a bit with a fingernail, off she comes. If there is a lot of dust on it, just suck the big chunks off first with a vacuum.

P5E is nice! Reading up here first:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/asus-p5e.html

I think you will need to check your BIOS version, possibly need to update that. The X38 chipset while maybe dated these days it was top of the line.

The E8500 should get close to or beyond 4GHz on air, any reason you chose 3.5ghz? The reason I ask is twofold:

Firstly, I've always been an advocate of setting a goal speed and then working with the system to get to that goal. Bench it and stability test it, set a new goal, and repeat. I like this method as it is fun to find out what it can do when you get there, rather than already knowing. It's a longer process in the end, more for savoring rather than rushing through, and it is a great way to learn out the settings. Sort of the journey not the destination scenario. This is just sort of the way I have personally done it in the past, even though I have seen others doing it this way it is not really a documented method.

Secondly, the most popular method of overclocking is to separately test the CPU, MOBO and RAM to find their maximum stable operation speed, then put it all together in a final setting, bench and test it. Routine for skilled overclockers, it is the quickest path to the end. For the unskilled, it can be often (except for the benchmarks) unstable.

Anyways, when you come to learn the second method, you will approach the first method differently. Rather than just picking a speed, we calculate things a bit and go for a number that is beneficial in some way. For example, if your cpu stock fsb is 800, then a logical progression would be to see if it runs at 1066MHZ or 1333MHz. Since your cpu is stockspeed 1333MHz, your first logical step is to 1600MHz. With your multiplier at stock maximum (9.5), this puts your cpu speed at 3.8GHz.

That should be your first goal, 3.8GHz. At first keeping the ram running slower, and when stable then try speeding the ram up. Ram is the real fun part, a lot more time goes into getting the ram stable but at it's fastest capable speed. There are way more ram settings to be tried than cpu/fsb settings.

I've found that some Asus boards have a setting in the BIOS that severly limit the overclock, I will try to dig this up from a P5B I have. There are some other settings in the BIOS that should be made as well. You need to turn off your power savings features, like C1E or CPU TM, and Spread Spectrum.

I've got some PDF worksheets for recording your progressive settings, better than a desk full of scrap paper notes. I'll post one that is close to the P5E bios once I get familiar with it.

I'll BBL when I read the review and look at the bios.

Finally got the new Artic Cooler installed. What a beast to get in there! I had to take off the fan to line up the 4 rubber screws and get it installed. But I think it is secure and the temps are definitely lower.

Could you please give me some advice on how to oc an Asus P5E, Falconise? The E8500 is currently running at stock 3.1728 MHz. I would like to take it up to maybe 3.5MHz on air cooling then benchmark frame rates at various settings to see what happens.

Many thanks

[Falconise]

Nice ram!

http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=23484&vpn=OCZ2RPR11502GK&manufacture=OCZ%20Technology

What voltage are you running them at? The sensor data doesn't show vdimm.

Some screenies might help.

[Blairgowrie]

Thanks Falconise. I'll try answering the easy stuff first. I picked 3.5GHz because I wanted to leave a wide margin of error. I don't play any other games other than iL2 and just wanted to see what effect a mild overclock might have on frame rates. I'd be willing to go higher though.

The bios version looks like it is 0605. I have tried to use Asus update to find the latest version but the server always shows busy when I try it. When I try to download a later version and flash it, it never seems to take.

The OCZ ram I am using is PC2-5300 at 333 MHz. The stuff you show from NCIX is PC2-9200 at 1150 MHz. Did you make a mistake or are you suggesting I get it? Also I think my RAM 2 screen shot does show the RAM voltage at 1.8. I have looked in the bios but can't find the voltage there.

Another funny thing is most of my Extreme Tweaker settings seem to be fixed on Auto. I can change stuff like MHz settings for RAM but that is about all.

[Falconise]

The Extreme Tweaker settings will become unlocked when you set the AI Overclock Tuner to MANUAL. I think... it may be another one... lol.

I'll check into the BIOS later. It's not a big deal yet, and at least we know what you are on.

Sorry for the confusion, I was looking at your last cpuz shot, and the ram is listed as PC2-5300, but also that it's part number is OCZ2RPR11501G, the same as the link I posted only that it isn't a 2gb kit and is only a single stick (xxxx1G as opposed to xxxx2GK as in the link). It also has the EPP profiles for 1150MHz operation. Do you have one or two sticks of this in your system?

OCZs part numbers are easy to decipher:

OCZ - obvious

2 - DDR type, DDR1 DDR2 DDR3 etc

RPR - Reaper HeatPipe Conduit (HPC)

1150 - rated MHz

1G - size of density, 1Gigabyte

The link has a K on the end, indicating a 2 stick kit.

It seems the SPD data is wierd in some way, either you got a really nice stick of ram rated at a much lower speed, or the SPD data is incorrect for what you have. Both are common things sort of. Is your ram the OCZ Reaper Heatpipe Conduit? I didn't know they made it at PC2-5300. Do you know the exact models you have? You can pull one and read the sticker on it, part number starts with OCZ...

That's the rated ram voltage in that last screenshot, what the manufacturer recommends or requires. Not what the system is actually set to. I'll show you where to set the voltage inna bit.

Your ram is running at 1066MHz, not 333. As per the third screenshot, the first ram one, look at DRAM Frequency, it says 534.4MHz. Round that to 533, and then double it to account for DDR (double data rate) and you get 1066MHz. Don't ask me why, it's just a fact that a lot of programs refer to ram in it's actual speed and not it's DDR speed.

[Falconise]

Get these additional apps we'll need (these are a must):

Memtest - burn a CD of the ISO here:

http://www.memtest86.com/

CPUz 150 is out:

http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php

PC Wizard:

http://www.cpuid.com/pcwizard.php

MemSet:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92190

Orthos:

http://www.overclock.net/downloads/138142-orthos.html

Prime 95:

http://majorgeeks.com/Prime95_d4363.html

HyperPi (SuperPi on Steroids - for stability and benching):

http://discussions.hardwarecentral.com/showthread.php?t=179504

These are additional (if interested):

Sandra (for benching - grab the free version):

http://www.sisoftware.net/index.html?dir=&location=downandbuy&langx=en&a=

Everest Ultimate (for benching and sensors, sys info - grab the trial version of Ultimate):

http://www.lavalys.com/products.php?lang=en&page=11

Speedfan (sensors and fan speed control):

http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php

WebTemp (graphing sensor data over time, use with SpeedFan):

http://www.webtemp.org/

Additional Benchmarks

3DMarks - hard to find the earlier non online versions, use whatever free version avail.

http://www.futuremark.com/

Aquamark - Very quick to run bench with great simple data feedback.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=673

Utilities

Screenshot Captor:

http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Mouser/screenshotcaptor/index.html

Irfanview - Screenshot resize and conversion, batch capable, free, very fast.

http://www.irfanview.ca/

[Falconise]

Here are some worksheets I make and use to track and record settings. I three hole punch them and keep them in a binder with any other info I print out for the system.

One of these two should be a good starting point for the P5E, similar enough anyway. I'll make a custom one for you later.

http://members.shaw.ca/falcon_icehole/AsusP5B-Worksheet.pdf

http://members.shaw.ca/falcon_icehole/AsusP5K-Worksheet.pdf

This is a rough sheet I use, usually only putting important milestones in the other dedicated one. This one has more room for a progression of settings when trying to settle something down.

http://members.shaw.ca/falcon_icehole/memtest-worksheet.pdf

This is a generic sheet, works for just about any nForce chipset and many others.

http://members.shaw.ca/falcon_icehole/Generic-Worksheet.zip

This is a temperature workseet, great for testing airflow configurations or new coolers.

http://members.shaw.ca/falcon_icehole/Temperature-Worksheet.pdf

[Falconise]

Intro to MemTest

I think it is important to know the system at stock speed is stable, and what sort of performance numbers you get, as well as what the AUTO settings actually set things at. CPUZ tells us a lot, but only some basics compared to what is available in your BIOS. That's why you need MemSet for the ram, and some sort of sensor program for sensor data.

Using the stockspeed as a baseline will show you how much improvement you get.

So the first column of the worksheet, I put in full auto settings. The second column is usually stock speed but manual settings, and perhaps tighter ram timings and faster ram speed.

Unless you know these are stable, overclocking can be a nightmare.

So the first thing to do for you I think, is to reset your BIOS to defaults, then lean it out by disabling things you don't need or have (this will improve boot times, and you will be rebooting a lot). In the last page of the BIOS, select Load System Defaults or Load Optimal Defaults. Reboot, and return to the BIOS.

Turn off things like Floppy, parallel ports, serial ports, IDE, anything you don't use.

Go to the boot menu, and make the first boot device the optical drive, disable all the others. Put the Memtest disk in the drive.

In the Power menu, Hardware Monitor, disable Qfan.

In AI Tweaker, everything to auto, except disable the spread sectrums.

In the Advanced menu, CPU Config, check that these are so:

Ratio Control: auto

C1E: enable

CPU TM: enable

Vanderpool: enable

Execute Disable Bit: enable

Max CPU Limit: disable

Intel Speedstep: enable

Later, we'll have to change a few of them.

Reboot, and return to the BIOS.

Lastly, in the Tools menu, Asus O.C. Profile, save the settings to Profile 1. This is your fully stock settings.

Now, reboot and let it boot to the memtest disk.

In the upper left side of the screen there are a bunch of numbers. These indicate calculated bandwidth of the various memory in the system. I record these in the first top boxes of the worksheet, labled BIOS Version, Memory type, etc.

The first line of numbers is the CPU speed.

The second line is the Level 1 Cache speed.

The third is the Level 2 Cache speed.

The fourth is the main memory speed.

It's the main memory speed you really want to watch.

The cache speeds are locked to the cpu, the faster the cpu goes the faster the cache. The RAM speed is dependant on the memory divider you are using, so doesn't have to scale with the cpu speed.

Record these on your worksheet, and let it run a few full passes.

If there are any errors, they will show uop as red text in the lower part of the screen. Hopefully, you see no red text.

Now lets try a few passes of only test 5, a very good test for memory problems. We want to run at least 20 passes for test 5. Hit these keys:

C, 1, 3, 5, enter, enter.

Now it will continue to run only test 5, until you turn off the computer.

You can do that with any test 1 through 0. Have a look at some of the other menu options in there, but there isn't much else I regularly use.

If there is no red text after 20 or so passes, reboot and enter the BIOS.

Change the boot device to the hard drive, save and exit.

Once in the OS, open memset and see what your ram timings are, record these in the lower section of the worksheet.

Open cpuz, and record the memory timings in the middle section of the worksheet and the basic CPU stuff in the upper section.

Anything you are not sure of, leave blank. It may not be pertinent yet, or available. Once overclocked, things start coming off auto real fast.

Run all the benchmarks you want, and record the results as best you can. I usually just take screenshots of them, and keep them in a folder called stockspeed yadda yadda. Sometimes it's good to have cpuz and memset open in the same shot, so you know what the system was set to when the bench was done. I prefer to just keep the screens in different folders named at the speed the system is at.

In the next post, we can take things off auto but stay at stock speed. The first thing to know about manual settings is how to set it up at stock speed.

[Blairgowrie]

Holy Toledo Falconise!

That is a ton of stuff you have provided there. Not sure I am up to doing this but I will certainly give it a shot.

First thing I will say is that you can upload images the way I did it by using Additional Options and uploading the screen shots.

First problem I have encountered is running Memtest. I was able to burn the ISO image ok but when I reboot, it goes right into Windows XP and skips Memtest. Same thing happens when I try to run another CD with an older version of Memtest that I have used before. Boot sequence in Bios is CD Rom first. Any suggestions?

[Fireman]

LOL, BG....I was considering overclocking too when I've got the new system built.

I was assuming it was just a matter of telling the PC to go faster (somewhere in the bios).....lol

I think I'll pass for now. :fighting:

[T_O_A_D]

LOL, BG....I was considering overclocking too when I've got the new system built.

I was assuming it was just a matter of telling the PC to go faster (somewhere in the bios).....lol

I think I'll pass for now. :fighting:

I can't believe with a machine that big, OC is even considered, let alone needed at this point.

I'm barely even half that, and can play this game perfectly.

[Falconise]

Yeah, more to come, I have some time today. Don't let it scare you off, it is a little wordy but the steps go fast and are easy to do. It becomes very routine after a few sessions.

It helps to have another system to use when it is benching and stressing, or do some housework.

Set your boot order to boot to the CD Rom only! Simply disable anything below it in the list. As it is, it is probably asking you to hit any key to boot to CD, and you either are missing the message or your screen hasn't come up as fast as the system boots. Force it to boot to the CD, then it should work. Going back to the HD is easy, change the first (only) boot device to your hard drive then save and exit. I run all my systems like this, it speeds up the boot.

Holy Toledo Falconise!

That is a ton of stuff you have provided there. Not sure I am up to doing this but I will certainly give it a shot.

First thing I will say is that you can upload images the way I did it by using Additional Options and uploading the screen shots.

First problem I have encountered is running Memtest. I was able to burn the ISO image ok but when I reboot, it goes right into Windows XP and skips Memtest. Same thing happens when I try to run another CD with an older version of Memtest that I have used before. Boot sequence in Bios is CD Rom first. Any suggestions?

[Blairgowrie]

That didn't work but changing the boot sequence to DVD and changing the drawer did. Memtest is now ticking merrily along. I am posting this on my back up computer.

PSU is an OCZ Gamestream 850W. I'll pull a ram stick after Memtest is down. Case is a Thermaltake Armor Full Size Tower.

Why do I want to oc TOAD? To get the experience and understand how it all works. And if it makes il2 look better, why not?

[Falconise]

The CPUs these days are quite capable, and it can make a huge difference in the way the machine feels. Granted, the faster the stock speed of the CPU, then less the percentage of performance increase, like a 3.1GHz E8500 overclcoked to 4.1GHz is a 1GHz improvement, but a 2GHz E2180 overclcoked to 3.2GHz is a 1200MHz improvement. It represents like a 30% improvement as opposed to 60% - my math right?

Telling it to go faster in the BIOS is exactly what you are doing! It's just not a single setting like it is in the new X58 and core i7.

You do need to have a basic understanding of how the system works, in order to make logical and correct descisions of what to change. As basic as it gets, it is just the CPU multiplier times the Frontside Bus speed, equals the final CPU speed. Ram speed is set with another muiltiplier that is actually a divider. So it is independant on the CPU speed, and you can run slow ram with a very fast CPU -- you will just be limited as to how far it can go because eventually your ram can run out of speed on it's lowest divider. As well, Ram has timings, or latency settings that can improve performance when set tighter (lower numbers), or relax it to run faster with set loose (higher numbers). The great thing is that fully auto settings in these fields are (these days) just fine.

CPU Multi x FSB speed = CPU speed

Ram divider x FSB speed x 2 (for DDR) = RAM speed

One confusing thing is that DDR speed is twice the actual ram speed. Even more confusing, is that the FSB speed on Intel socket 775 is "Quad Pumped", meaning that it is multiplied four times to get it's final speed. So a 1333MHz FSB is actually 333MHz times 4. In most BIOSs, you would enter 333 in the FSB field for a 1333MHz FSB, but a good BIOS will tell you what your final speeds are after entering any number in the FSB field.

Either way, keep a calculator handy!

So, Blair's first CPUZ shot shows us that his CPU is running 3172.8MHz (or 3.17GHz rounded). The Multiplier is 9.5x. The Bus speed is at 334.0MHz (333MHz rounded). His Rated FSB is then 1335.9MHz (1333MHz rounded). Don't worry about the odd numbers being reported, that is normal:

333MHz x 9.5 = 3163.5MHz or 3.16GHz.

The multiplier on these CPUs is locked, you cannot adjust them upward. You can adjust them downward though. This may come into play later, but for the most part the highest available CPU multi is best.

So the only way we can tell the PC to go faster, is to increase the FSB speed. That is simple enough, once the feature is unlocked by changing that first setting... lol.

Lets say we change Blairs FSB to 350MHz, that gives us:

350 x 9.5 = 3325MHz or 3.33GHz rounded.

Interesting, because intel has a model that runs at that speed, but gets there by a higher multiplier:

333 x 10 = 3.33GHz

The E8400 gets a 9x multi:

333 x 9 = 2997MHZ or 3GHz rounded!

See how it works? Questions?

OK, so school teacher here: Blair wanted a 3.5GHz overclock, what would his FSB need to be to get that?

LOL, BG....I was considering overclocking too when I've got the new system built.

I was assuming it was just a matter of telling the PC to go faster (somewhere in the bios).....lol

I think I'll pass for now. :fighting:

I can't believe with a machine that big, OC is even considered, let alone needed at this point.

I'm barely even half that, and can play this game perfectly.

[Blairgowrie]

Let me guess 370 rounded.

[Falconise]

Manual StockSpeed Settings

Sometimes, when you take too many things off Auto at once, the system fails to boot. Not a big problem, the P5E should boot into safe mode, let you enter the BIOS and make changes. If you get too far astray, simply load Profile 1 in the tools menu.

Look at the screenshots on this page of the review I was reading:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/asus-p5e_6.html

We will set the system up exactly like that, except with different values for the settings because you have a different CPU. We'll keep the ram relaxed at this point, to keep it out of the picture.

Once AI Overclock Tuner is set to manual, all the other settings become available.

AI Overclock Tuner - Manual

CPU Ratio Control - Manual

Ratio Setting - 9.5

FSB Frequency - 333

FSB Strap to NB - Auto

PCIe Frequency - 100 *** never change this!

DRAM Frequency - DDR2-800 (we'll increase this later)

DRAM Command Rate - 2T

DRAM Timing Control - Manual

5

5

5

15 (we'll try tighter timings later)

the rest auto

That's it! Boot to memtest and see if the bandwidth numbers changed, up or down? If it tests OK, boot to the OS and check cpuz and memset, did any of the ram timings or speed change? Up or down?

Feel free to post your results.

[Falconise]

Let me guess 370 rounded.

Close enough! 369 would do it, but you'd run 369 only if 370 was a problem I think. The math works best with numbers containing 3 (or a product of 3?), like 133, 166, 233, 266, 333, 533, 667, 800, 1066, etc. Usually the board will compensatre for this, but you will find common speeds where these numbers keep popping up.

Another goal speed would be 3.56GHz, or 375 x 9.5.

But like I said earlier, the next big step up from 333FSB is 400FSB, so a new goal of 3.8GHz is in order:

400 x 9.5 = 3800MHz or 3.8GHz rounded.

Now that should be noticable, and hopefully achievable without having to increase any voltages!

Beyond that, I think we'd need to first find out what the maximum FSB the board is capable of, it may not do much more than 400MHz. The CPU almost definately will, and certainly the board may too but I don't know this. The process of finding the max FSB is not difficult, uses the same settings we changed above but with different tactics. We'll get there later perhaps.

[Blairgowrie]

Before I do that Falconise.

Memtest has finished running with no errors.

And you were correct. I just found the invoice for the OCZ ram.

[Falconise]

Tighten and Tune the Ram

If all went well with the manual stock settings, lets try and tune the ram.

I really need to know what the timings were on auto to know what to set here, but I can edit it later.

First thing I like to do is take the ram voltage off auto and set it to 1.8 volts (this should be the lowest setting). Then, leaving everything else the same I'd do a quick check in Memtest, one full pass and 20 passes test 5. If all is well, then...

DRAM Frequency - DDR2-800 (we'll increase this later)

DRAM Command Rate - 2T

DRAM Timing Control - Manual

4

4

4

12

the rest auto

Back into memtest, how do you like the boost in bandwidth? Should be pretty good, and hopefully still no errors. If we get errors, just increase the ram voltage 1 tick at a time till it goes away. Should only need a couple ticks, but this is valuable info, as we now know that we'll need to increase voltage if we want the ram to go even faster. That kit should be rated for 2.1 volts, but only really needed at higher speeds.

Next, I would change the DRAM Command Rate to 1T. This should provide a huge boost in performance, but there is also a chance it can't do it and fail to boot. Increase the voltage some more and see if that helps. If it boots, woot!

You can try even tighter, and see if there is any more bandwidth, 4-4-4-9 is often possible at DDR2-800.

Otherwise, take 4-4-4-12 and 1T to the OS and bench it, see how much boost you got, and still running stock speed, with the ram running slower than your original 1066MHz.

Take a cpuz and memset screen, see if those auto settings changed when you tightened the timings... they often do! You can use these new numbers as a starting point for when and if you take some of the other timings off auto.

Overclocking is a lot about experimentation, trial and error, a process of elimination, and denial and error! It's very rewarding once you hit a milestone and/or start to understand it better.

[Falconise]

Oh yeah baby! Nice stuff, ram speed will not be a problem.

Before I do that Falconise.

Memtest has finished running with no errors.

And you were correct. I just found the invoice for the OCZ ram.