High-speed rolling scissors

[Vila]

That maneuver suppose to give us advantage over La5FN if we are inside FW190 A5.

Trout posted that most of contacts between FWs and LAs in condition when FW had La on 6 ended victoriously for FW.

I believe him, guy didn't sucked that out of his thumb.

My simple question is HOW TO DO IT properly?

Saw drawings, texts and some tracks, but when I try to do rolling scissors with La on my 6 I end up dead, or heavily damaged and then dead...like last night during SEOW when Malish glued to my ass after some 4 minutes of dogfight.

Damned that man.

So where is the secret?

I know that I should maintain the speed, have eye on bandit and try to do...what?

Coaching required over here brothers.

 

[Trout]

Hi Vila.

[Vila]

No Trout .

I said that you posted...well to be precise..."This is from the game's aircraft guide: Most of the dogfights on the Eastern Front occur at lower altitudes where the 190 does not yet begin to shine. It should use energy tactics against most Soviet fighters, as they’ll usually outturn the 190 rather easily. Its main advantage however is its phenomenal roll rate. High-speed rolling scissors rarely end in anything but a clear victory for the 190."

So I put shorten version of it ..."Trout posted that most of contacts between FWs and LAs in condition when FW had La on 6 ended victoriously for FW.

I believe him, guy didn't sucked that out of his thumb."

If you misunderstood me, that's probably couse of my peasant, incorrect English .

Like you, I tried rolling scissors.

Maneuver don't worked for me.

Couse I don't know how to do it properly.

I want to learn how to do it properly.

So that damned thing could work even for redneck as I am.

So next time when Malish stick to my ass, I can show finger to him and give him a goood .

[Perfesser]

I would be the guilty party there. That quote was right from the game's aircraft guide.

High speed scissors is counter to what I thought scissors were, a low speed series of turning maneuvers

[B16Enk]

Would the attached help?

Forgot I had this....

Unzip it to it's own folder, navigate to it and run ACMVIZ.exe then select 'File' - 'Open' you'll find scissors amongst other maneuvers there.

ACM.zip

[Strider]

~S~ m8's!

Can't beat Dart's articles on just about anything IL2 that he addresses, IMHO.

See page 2 of this article for a .wmv and a d/l ntrk of scissors:

http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_302a.html

See here for Dart's videos on several aspects, both instructional and just to watch (couple of ntrks on scissors about 1/2 way down the page):

http://www.darts-page.com/

Check out all the buttons on the left side of the page---some good info and vid's to be found.

Hope it helps!

Strider

[T_O_A_D]

Ok, my quick take on this.

High speed rolling Scissors?

If you are low, and an La is on your 6, odds are you are not at high speed.

Thus you will be forced into a low speed maneuvering situation,and likely shot down soon.

The 190 has to be used as B&Z against ground targets, and air. Never turn unless you know your clear of threats.

When reading things about any of these aircraft from history books, you got to remember the History books were written on the original scenarios.

Late war engagements, had lesser trained pilots in the La's than the 190's, and it weighed on the outcomes and tactics, for the most part.

Not true in this Simulation we now play.

You are flying against people with thousands of hours at the stick, and some of them fly only one aircraft for the most part.

You can't expect to pull a particular move over, and over, and expect to win against a good pilot in a more maneuverable plane, at an altitude that they have most of the advantages, due to there aircraft.

The only answer is, no matter the difficulty of achieving is.

Wingmanship, and fly your ride to it's strengths. (B&Z)

[Perfesser]

I now believe the stats do NOT reflect the way the game is modeled.

Trout and I just finished some testing and even right up to 6000 m the LA appears to be have the advantage.

The only thing we have available that can deal with the LA is the 109G2.

[Logos]

Hmmm? Could it be that the games creator is a Russian? I think a few of them Red commie planes are a tad "uber". Toad said it best. If you are caught on the deck in any of our Luft aircraft you are more likely to die than any other scenario in this SEOW. B & Z to live. Engage in a turn fight to die. Rolling scissors is just another act of desperation a pilot may attempt because he lost the advantage of altitude and energy and found himself chugging along on the deck. La5FN's rule down there. Ya' think we'd a figured that out after the first mission. ARGH ! What the hell do I know? I'm just a noob.

Logos 69th GIAP Stats 10 missions flown. 8 deaths. 1 air kill. 1 ship kill.

[Vila]

Yeap, it looks just like you said TOAD.

I misunderstood something about entire topic as it seems.

Anyway, best thing (beside tracks on You Tube) that I found about topic and BF190 generally is posted by Arsenal.

Who ever is interested can find it here: http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154

and here: http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=215#p724.

PDF format, FW190 and La5.

Smart, simple, useful and good stuff.

And of course...practice, practice, practice.

[delta7]

Hi - I fly the FW a lot and I posted some materiel on the FW 190 in the vault a while ago which might be of interest

http://www.dangerdogz.com/K9Vault/p13_sectionid/5/p13_fileid/233

http://www.dangerdogz.com/K9Vault/p13_sectionid/5/p13_fileid/228

For ACM then see here

http://www.dangerdogz.com/K9Vault/p13_sectionid/5/p13_fileid/223

and go to SIMHQ , air and look for library, then look for articles by Andy Bush which describe scissors and rolling scissors, they are the best Iv found.

http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html

In general I have found that in 99% of the times if you are low and slow in a FW with a plane on your 6 then you will be shot down, it does not pick up speed well so you cant escape, all the bandit has to do is sit there and wait and he will get the shots he needs.

Its only advantage in a dogfight is in its roll rate so thats why its good in scissors. You have 2 options in the scissors depending on what you want the outcome. If you wish to just try to survive and escape keep the roll as flat as possible, you use rolling scissors like gun jinks (e.g. sharp rudder or stick inputs) to put off his aim, while trying to extend towards friendlies. If you want to try to make the opponent overshoot then do wider rolls as it looses speed at any AoA

[Vila]

Hey Delta!

Iv learned few things sins last post on this topic.

First of all, I start to fly FW much more often than before (my sympathy lies with German planes).

Then, many hours were spent on off line sims (quick mission builder, La5 FN or on Ace level, map Smolensk, no icons, both of us leveled at 1000m).

Pretty soon, it was exactly as TOAD told.

FW is energy fighter, so speed is essential.

It took some time to master maneuver, but once I did it, La on my 6 was not problem any more.

It overshoot every time, and after that everything was in deflection shooting (I'm still working on that).

Anyway, next step was hiperloby and again, many hours on server "Dedicado...something"

Spanish dogfight server.

Taking off, avoiding contact until 3000 - 4000m is reached, looking for tracers or clean target down below, shallow or sharp diving, cca 600km/h speed, BnZ, stay fast, stay high, stay alive.

Every time, when I loose nerves and start to chase bad guy instead pulling back, somebody sticks to my 6.

If bandit is seen on time, in 8 of 10 cases he overshoot after rolling scissors.

On Eastern Sundays coop, two DDs (don't know who but they were flying P47 and something else) glued to my back and I manage to roll them both.

I get killed some minute after that, but my FW rolled them!!!

For better pilots that is not something, but for me that was great accomplishment.

It seems my skills are growing.

Slowly but enough to move in Ladder pool and challenge somebody this week.

I don't feel like sheep any more (and we have guys in squadron...well they prefer sheep, so try to understand my fears ).

Those links that you posted, they are more than useful.

Man is learning until he lives.

THX m8.

[delta7]

Glad to help.

Good to see another FW convert - it is a hard plane to master but deadly when used right

S

[Fireman]

I too have been grabbing the FW whenever I can for co-ops.....it is usually pretty lonely being one of the few on the blue team....lol

[Rattler]

I tend to take the 190 in late war coops as well, simply because most Dogz don't. I don't like to give the Allied side a free ride!

It doesn't always work out in my favour, as some of the BBury Ardennes missions are a bit weighted to the Allies' favour, but it's still fun to scream in from on high on the unsuspecting Allied ground pounders and rip their wings off.

[delta7]

Its my belief that if you can suceed in a Fw then you will do well in most planes- it teaches you a lot about the importance of energy in a fight

[Bard]

Yeap, it looks just like you said TOAD.

I misunderstood something about entire topic as it seems.

Anyway, best thing (beside tracks on You Tube) that I found about topic and BF190 generally is posted by Arsenal.

Who ever is interested can find it here: http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154

and here: http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=215#p724.

PDF format, FW190 and La5.

Smart, simple, useful and good stuff.

And of course...practice, practice, practice.

I've put up a bunch more - listed on http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/library.htm

Cheers.

[Bard]

Its my belief that if you can suceed in a Fw then you will do well in most planes- it teaches you a lot about the importance of energy in a fight

The Fw-190 is an AWESOME aircraft for early to mid war - later it starts to get a bit too heavy and acceleration suffers and its contemporaries start getting faster. Out of all the aircraft in the game the 190A4 is my favourite aircraft - it's the ultimate hunter's fighter in having the firepower to devestate anything it can catch unaware.

[Rattler]

Its my belief that if you can suceed in a Fw then you will do well in most planes- it teaches you a lot about the importance of energy in a fight

The Fw-190 is an AWESOME aircraft for early to mid war - later it starts to get a bit too heavy and acceleration suffers and its contemporaries start getting faster. Out of all the aircraft in the game the 190A4 is my favourite aircraft - it's the ultimate hunter's fighter in having the firepower to devestate anything it can catch unaware.

Salute, Bard! Good to see ya trolling around here! I agree with you completely - the early FW's, (A3-A6) really rule in their element from '42-'43.

[Bard]

I discovered that Alexa keeps a track of sites that link to mine and found this thread as one of the sites linking. It also told me I have the 10,872,727th most popular site on the internet (heh, I guess I have some pimping to do ).

[T_O_A_D]

Welcome Bard!

[delta7]

Its my belief that if you can suceed in a Fw then you will do well in most planes- it teaches you a lot about the importance of energy in a fight

The Fw-190 is an AWESOME aircraft for early to mid war - later it starts to get a bit too heavy and acceleration suffers and its contemporaries start getting faster. Out of all the aircraft in the game the 190A4 is my favourite aircraft - it's the ultimate hunter's fighter in having the firepower to devestate anything it can catch unaware.

Salute, Bard! Good to see ya trolling around here! I agree with you completely - the early FW's, (A3-A6) really rule in their element from '42-'43.

S Bard

My favourite is the A9 in late war and A6 as an all round plane, it turns better but you shouldnt be turning in a FW anyway

[Rattler]

S Bard

My favourite is the A9 in late war and A6 as an all round plane, it turns better but you shouldnt be turning in a FW anyway