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Pershing/Super Pershing/Centurion vs Stalin Tank et al

JensenPark

By JensenPark
in Jim's Place

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JensenPark Mongrel

JensenPark

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was watching Tank Overhaul on History the other day and they were showing these guys on the Isle of Wight who are rebuilding a Brit Comet tank.

They showed some footage of it in battle at end of WW2...and commented about what a great tank it was.

Then they showed the post-war Russian parade in Berlin where the Ruskies paraded around the huge (newer) Stalin tank.

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JensenPark Mongrel

JensenPark

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was watching Tank Overhaul on History the other day and they were showing these guys on the Isle of Wight who are rebuilding a Brit Comet tank.

They showed some footage of it in battle at end of WW2...and commented about what a great tank it was.

Then they showed the post-war Russian parade in Berlin where the Ruskies paraded around the huge (newer) Stalin tank.

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Tribunus Fleabag

Tribunus

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Assuming the US could produce enough Pershings (and were smart enough to 'up' them to Super-Pershing) and the UK could get the Centurion to the field in numbers...

Production of the Pershing was just starting and the U.S. assembly plants were, for the most part, still tooled for mass production of Shermans.

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Tribunus Fleabag

Tribunus

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Assuming the US could produce enough Pershings (and were smart enough to 'up' them to Super-Pershing) and the UK could get the Centurion to the field in numbers...

Production of the Pershing was just starting and the U.S. assembly plants were, for the most part, still tooled for mass production of Shermans.

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Enforcer57 Fleabag

Enforcer57

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Ditto all the above....the stalin was a bit cumbersom and its 120 was designed mainly for urban warfare. but WTF was a Super Pershing? Never heard of that one. The M26 Pershing and the brit Centurian (with its 85mm gun I think) were more than a match for the T-34/85 and Stalin, as was the case in Korea, though most M-26s had been replaced with the visually identical M-46 Patton by then. The few Pershings available in Europe in 45 were spread out among Sherman units, and did extremely well against Panthers and Tigers.

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Enforcer57 Fleabag

Enforcer57

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Ditto all the above....the stalin was a bit cumbersom and its 120 was designed mainly for urban warfare. but WTF was a Super Pershing? Never heard of that one. The M26 Pershing and the brit Centurian (with its 85mm gun I think) were more than a match for the T-34/85 and Stalin, as was the case in Korea, though most M-26s had been replaced with the visually identical M-46 Patton by then. The few Pershings available in Europe in 45 were spread out among Sherman units, and did extremely well against Panthers and Tigers.

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Rattler Mongrel

Rattler

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The Brits came out quickly with 2 other tanks to combat the IS2/3; the Conqueror (same problems as the IS 2/3 - too heavy), and the Centurian. It first had a 20lber (well, 17 in the design phase) but was upgunned to the 105 L7 soon after. It was an awesome tank, just a little slow by today's standards.

The Russians had a lot of the IS2/3's, but were still depending mainly on the T34/85, which was a great tank in its own right.

I think that you can extrapolate the Israeli's experiences overall for what might have happened if the Sov's ever took on NATO. Better training and technology likely would have won out in the end.

Still, I'd hate to have been in an American tank (or anybody's except the Brits) up to the Abrams.

One thing; when I was taking my 'gunnery god' course in Gagetown New Brunswick, we had a few East German T-72 G's that were brought over in 1992 for testing. Our 105 APDSFS went though the front turret armour of the T 72's like it was a hot knife through butter. Actually, our tank trainers, the Cougar (low velocity 76mm from the British Scorpion) would penetrate the same armour with HESH rounds. Just goes to show you what the Sov's were giving their 'friends' as export tanks.

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Rattler Mongrel

Rattler

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The Brits came out quickly with 2 other tanks to combat the IS2/3; the Conqueror (same problems as the IS 2/3 - too heavy), and the Centurian. It first had a 20lber (well, 17 in the design phase) but was upgunned to the 105 L7 soon after. It was an awesome tank, just a little slow by today's standards.

The Russians had a lot of the IS2/3's, but were still depending mainly on the T34/85, which was a great tank in its own right.

I think that you can extrapolate the Israeli's experiences overall for what might have happened if the Sov's ever took on NATO. Better training and technology likely would have won out in the end.

Still, I'd hate to have been in an American tank (or anybody's except the Brits) up to the Abrams.

One thing; when I was taking my 'gunnery god' course in Gagetown New Brunswick, we had a few East German T-72 G's that were brought over in 1992 for testing. Our 105 APDSFS went though the front turret armour of the T 72's like it was a hot knife through butter. Actually, our tank trainers, the Cougar (low velocity 76mm from the British Scorpion) would penetrate the same armour with HESH rounds. Just goes to show you what the Sov's were giving their 'friends' as export tanks.

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Enforcer57 Fleabag

Enforcer57

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Holy crap Rattler, I had no idea the Scorpion's 76 could take on ANY tank, much less a T-72. The Centurian was such a versatile machine, being modified and upgunned through its history. The Isreali Versions were incredibly advanced by 73, totally re-equipped with engines, guns, tracks, etc. Just look at what the Isrealis did with the M-50 Super sherman and that French 105. Those things took on T-62s in 73 and usually WON. I would love to hear some of your experiences on those things someday. The Isrealis liked the armor protection of the Centurian. In Vietnam, Aussie Centurians were highly resistant to RPGs, unlike our M-48s.

Rusky tanks were also a nightmare from the crew's standpoint. Only half the turret floor rotated with teh turret up until the T-62 I THINK. Being a loader must have been a real bitch on those things.

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Enforcer57 Fleabag

Enforcer57

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Holy crap Rattler, I had no idea the Scorpion's 76 could take on ANY tank, much less a T-72. The Centurian was such a versatile machine, being modified and upgunned through its history. The Isreali Versions were incredibly advanced by 73, totally re-equipped with engines, guns, tracks, etc. Just look at what the Isrealis did with the M-50 Super sherman and that French 105. Those things took on T-62s in 73 and usually WON. I would love to hear some of your experiences on those things someday. The Isrealis liked the armor protection of the Centurian. In Vietnam, Aussie Centurians were highly resistant to RPGs, unlike our M-48s.

Rusky tanks were also a nightmare from the crew's standpoint. Only half the turret floor rotated with teh turret up until the T-62 I THINK. Being a loader must have been a real bitch on those things.

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Rattler Mongrel

Rattler

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Holy crap Rattler, I had no idea the Scorpion's 76 could take on ANY tank, much less a T-72.

The 76mm HESH is a good round, but more tho the point, Sov export tanks, T-72's in particular, were crap! When 1990 rolled around, and everybody was worried about Saddam's huge army, our gunnery guys were working on a long rod penetrator APDSFS (more mass) and it would blow right on through 3 T-72 turrets lined up front to back.

The Americans were working on a 140mm gun for the Abrams, and versions of the 155mm howitzer for a gun tube. They found out that they didn't need them. Even the Marine Corps M-60 A3's with their 105's were good enough (just weak on the armour side.)

The 120's that we have now, using the L55 gun tube in the Leo 2, and the Challenger 2's 120mm L32(?) are absolutely the kick ass guns of the day. The Abrams' gun tube is still good, but has less muzzle velocity than the other 2. The Russian 125's have always shown themselves to be lacking in hitting power.

I met a sergeant in a tank battalion who exercised through CFB Wainwright in Alberta one year, and he was in the Gulf War (1991). A T-72 sabot hit one of their tanks in the turret front, left side, and stuck there. They left it until they could get back to a servicing area, and the techs just cut it off flush and left it in the armour. When it went back to the States, it went to the Lima tank armory and was studied for awhile.

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Rattler Mongrel

Rattler

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Holy crap Rattler, I had no idea the Scorpion's 76 could take on ANY tank, much less a T-72.

The 76mm HESH is a good round, but more tho the point, Sov export tanks, T-72's in particular, were crap! When 1990 rolled around, and everybody was worried about Saddam's huge army, our gunnery guys were working on a long rod penetrator APDSFS (more mass) and it would blow right on through 3 T-72 turrets lined up front to back.

The Americans were working on a 140mm gun for the Abrams, and versions of the 155mm howitzer for a gun tube. They found out that they didn't need them. Even the Marine Corps M-60 A3's with their 105's were good enough (just weak on the armour side.)

The 120's that we have now, using the L55 gun tube in the Leo 2, and the Challenger 2's 120mm L32(?) are absolutely the kick ass guns of the day. The Abrams' gun tube is still good, but has less muzzle velocity than the other 2. The Russian 125's have always shown themselves to be lacking in hitting power.

I met a sergeant in a tank battalion who exercised through CFB Wainwright in Alberta one year, and he was in the Gulf War (1991). A T-72 sabot hit one of their tanks in the turret front, left side, and stuck there. They left it until they could get back to a servicing area, and the techs just cut it off flush and left it in the armour. When it went back to the States, it went to the Lima tank armory and was studied for awhile.

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Sid Mongrel

Sid

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Interesting stuff, thanks guys. I enjoy looking around the armour museums - we have a few eg. Bovington in Dorset that are full of examples from all over.

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Sid Mongrel

Sid

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Interesting stuff, thanks guys. I enjoy looking around the armour museums - we have a few eg. Bovington in Dorset that are full of examples from all over.

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Perfesser Mongrel

Perfesser

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was watching Tank Overhaul on History the other day and they were showing these guys on the Isle of Wight who are rebuilding a Brit Comet tank.

Got me thinking about a 'what if' scenario...if the Ruskies invaded west right after the war.

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Perfesser Mongrel

Perfesser

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was watching Tank Overhaul on History the other day and they were showing these guys on the Isle of Wight who are rebuilding a Brit Comet tank.

Got me thinking about a 'what if' scenario...if the Ruskies invaded west right after the war.

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