Mikkowls Multi-Throttle support?

[Kimosabi]

So are anyone using it?

I approached him about trim-wheel sensitivities on the G940 the other day, and he let me test out the unreleased 4.0 version and so far I friggin' love it. It basically solves all trim related problems on the G940 and the 4.0 version also includes all three trims instead of two. All the light functions are pretty cool as well. Taking off and landing is almost like driving through a rally stage now, heal/toe all the way.

[T_O_A_D]

Never heard of it, does it support other sticks.

I am no t liking the New saitek profiler, for WIN7

Link?

[Kimosabi]

Sorry, link would be good ofcourse. I don't know if it supports other sticks, I approached him on behalf of the G940 so that's the only stick we have discussed.

Here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9681029528/p/1

I have never tried the 3.1 or the 3.2 version though but so far, the yet unreleased 4.0 is very good. He's working on it still. Meticulous man that Mikkowl.

[T_O_A_D]

Rgr thanks, will look into it.

[Kimosabi]

Did I mention that it supports individual toe-brakes as well?

Edit*

4.0 released. Linky: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=147543&postcount=85/url]

I think a small compensation for his work is well deserved.

~S~

[Kimosabi]

Ofcourse, now I can't edit my last post anymore so here goes again. Correct link this time:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=147543&postcount=85

[Crash]

I have down loaded this and will install tonight. Looks like he has put a load of effort into this.

[Kimosabi]

He has but I'm starting to dislike it now. Keeps un-assigning my buttons or assigning them to something else. I'm dropping it and going for keyboard trim instead. The multiengine planes are close enough to the turn capabilities you get with individual brakes anyway. I'm a simplistic dude and having three programs running in addition to the game is too much hazzle.

[T_O_A_D]

Well, It was too complicated for me to get my head around,

And once I found it was Device Link, I really didn't have much faith in its response time.

My Controls need to be instantaneous, Device link and gauges are to slow for my liking too.

[Kimosabi]

The DeviceLink didn't bother me nearly as much as the requirement of having the game running before you activate the MutliThrottle. Minimizing the game usually disables the FFB and although that wasn't the biggest issue, automatically re-assigning flaps to prop-pitch wheel etc. was.

Taking off was a pain to say the least, adjusting flaps worked 100% sometimes but other times it would kick in on the prop pitch as well... Not fun taking off heavy on shorter runways. I've stopped using the program now and everything is groovy again.

[Guest]

For a short while I was temped to unpack my G940 once more... but after reading all of this... nope

[fruitbat]

some good news is, is that multithrottle support is implemented in patch 4.10, and most of the other stuff in mikkowls program.

[Jabo]

Um. I thought that left and right wheel brakes were slaved to the rudder in game? Try it when stationary, hit the brakes and give it full rudder and your plane will turn on a sixpence even if your engine throttle controls are set together. The only times I have found individual throttle control useful is when nursing a damaged plane home (and even then trim is more useful), or when taxiing flying boats when it's an absolute must-have.

[Kimosabi]

Yes, Jabo, the planes turn on a dime when using both brakes as well so that's why I ditched it, as fuitbat mentioned, 4.10 will incorporate multithrottle so I don't see any need for having the program anymore. Individual brakes did make taxing easier though since you could lock, or brake, one wheel at a time. Very useful for taxing heavies around.

Especially now that I have learned to use keyboard trims instead of the wheels on the stick's base. The range was a problem, wasn't accurate enough using the stick because of the game's range contra degrees of turning them, so I tried it. Trim worked great, range can be adjusted in MultiThrottle to apply better on the G940, but it was the other issues I found less amusing.

Apart from trims, and the range issues, I am very happy with the G940 myself, FT.

[MikkOwl]

Hello all. I'm gratified to hear all the positive (and of course, negative) commentary on that piece of software I made. The negative is particularly interesting. I apologize in advance for the long post, but there is a lot to reply to.

Based on some feedback from Kimosabi earlier, as well as my own desires, I had worked on the next version which would probably address a lot of the bad sides. Most of the main improvements were done, but only functionally, not polished and user configurable properly etc.. And then, my damned C: drive started dying. Bad sectors, read errors. Already got a replacement drive and saved most of my data, but I only have Linux (Ubuntu) working at the moment.

Never heard of it, does it support other sticks.

I am no t liking the New saitek profiler, for WIN7

Yeah, it works for any hardware that is directinput. Not sure if it can replace that Saitek profiler completely though. Depends on what you want to do. It's not really meant to be a setup program to replace what we have, but instead complement and add to what we don't have. For example, using individual toe brakes on rudder pedals that support it. I'd like to think that another big feature is the trim tuning that is possible (can limit the range, and move the range so it is only left of center, for example, making trimming much less overly sensitive, and being able to make use of the whole range of the device trim wheel/etc).

Especially though, it fixes a lot of crap with the G940.

I think a small compensation for his work is well deserved.

You are an awesome man of integrity, Kimosabi.

I'm starting to dislike it now. Keeps un-assigning my buttons or assigning them to something else.(...) automatically re-assigning flaps to prop-pitch wheel etc. was (the biggest issue)

This would be a show stopper. The only time I have heard reports (or seen it myself) of controls performing different functions at the same time is when the same axis was bound to something inside of IL-2 natively too. In each case that was the issue and it was sorted by making sure axis was not assigned in IL-2, etc. If it isn't that though, then I don't know - must be something I'm not seeing. This is the only reported case so far.

I'm a simplistic dude and having three programs running in addition to the game is too much hazzle.

Well, It was too complicated for me to get my head around,

DeviceLink didn't bother me nearly as much as the requirement of having the game running before you activate the MutliThrottle. Minimizing the game usually disables the FFB and although that wasn't the biggest issue

Especially due to Kimosabi's generosity and feedback, I made a very major effort to address this issue. Procedure to run the next version of Multi-Throttle changed to the following:

At ANY point, one just runs the launcher app. Whenever. Its icon appears next to your clock in the task bar and a little taskbar msg lets you know that it is standing by. Takes no CPU and only a few megs of RAM. And that's it. Can shut it down when not needing it if one needs the few megs of RAM. Can be started before or after IL-2, makes no difference. Can start it hours ahead if one wants. There's nothing to click, no ALT-E to exit, no pop-up windows.

Behind the scenes, this little launcher app just waits for IL-2 to be running, and then runs whatever parts of Multi-Throttle it needs. Completely hidden and in the background. No more console (DOS) windows or anything else. If alt-tabbing out of IL-2 one can see a few more icons in the task-bar next to the clock, but that's all.

It similarly also shuts down all the processes it needed to function when IL-2 is closed. Remaining is only the tiny launcher, waiting for the time IL-2 is launched again.

I tested this pretty thoroughly to make sure it really works and I think I managed to make it rock solid and stable. Can alt tab, start this and that, close, alt tab more, open, close etc, seems to always work the way it should, in game and out. I think this is more in line with what people really wanted it to work like. Took a bunch of time and resources away from other features, but it seemed important enough to warrant it.

Well, It was too complicated for me to get my head around,

And once I found it was Device Link, I really didn't have much faith in its response time.

My Controls need to be instantaneous, Device link and gauges are to slow for my liking too.

I can understand if it seems complicated. It used to be really bad before. The current version isn't so bad though, and the next version makes it very straightforward. Just unzip, edit conf.ini file to activate devicelink, run SETUP and bind your controls, start app/IL2 (in any order). Just have to remember to not double assign controls in the app and in IL-2. Any future uses is just remembering to start it.

I don't agree with the devicelink speed objections though. Not sure what it is you need it to do so quickly. The response time from you moving a controller to it being sent into IL-2 is measured in milliseconds mostly, which is pretty close to the default IL-2 response time. And it is mainly used for trims, throttles and toe brakes (and radiator on axis if one wants, and prop pitch, and in some versions, fuel mixture on axis), which cannot move instantaneously in IL-2 (there's a limit on how fast trims move for example). It sends controls very quickly to IL-2, and reads them a bit slower (not really relevant for much since it doesn't have gauges or other real-time data showing. Except I suppose light changing on the G940 throttle buttons, but it's not exactly time critical for them).

some good news is, is that multithrottle support is implemented in patch 4.10, and most of the other stuff in mikkowls program.

They are implementing three features that my app has: Multi throttles, multi-prop pitch and radiator on axis.

They are not implementing:

1. More advanced trim options (offset from center, range)

2. Fuel Mixture on axis (not really activated in the recent versions of my app, so doesn't quite count)

3. Toe brakes/differential braking

4. G940 LED support

5. G940 reversal bug removal from axes

6. Individual prop feathering

7. Individual Engine start/stop

8. G940 throttles sync adjustment (they tend to not match their output completely, but I made it possible to tweak their positions to match)

New version contains one button fov changing, with precision mode activation for TrackIR if one has such a device, when in the zoomed in mode. Also contains reversal bug removal for the G940 stick and rudder (a hell of a lot easier to do precision aiming I find)

Um. I thought that left and right wheel brakes were slaved to the rudder in game? Try it when stationary, hit the brakes and give it full rudder and your plane will turn on a sixpence even if your engine throttle controls are set together.

They are bound to the rudder. But only some planes worked like that in WW2 (Brit planes in particular, like the Spitfire). Luftwaffe planes tend to have toe brakes instead. IL-2 does not support toe brakes, which is where this app comes in. It has to manipulate the rudder and the brakes to get the results, but it works pretty much as it should in practice.

The only times I have found individual throttle control useful is when nursing a damaged plane home (and even then trim is more useful), or when taxiing flying boats when it's an absolute must-have.

I have to agree. In IL-2, which is very simplistic in engine management and overly forgiving, it's more of a novelty/immersion thing than a necessity. In reality, I doubt the throttles were 100% linked and the engines identical, and engine damage and problems were far more likely. The pilot would look at the manifold pressure gauges when moving the throttles to make sure the pressure matched rather than the sticks themselves. I'm sure this will change with Storm of War.

[Kimosabi]

Heyah Mikko!

Yeah it was weird how the sliders started messing about. One day I could have prop pitch on R1 and flaps on R2 and the next day it could be opposite or flaps working simoultaneously with pitch on R1. Never made any changes in the meantime and all assignments were disabled in the game. Since it's the first time you've heard about it, I can imagine that it could have been some kind of stuff going on with the G940 program/profiler though. I've deleted that program now, as well as Multithrottle and now my assignments stays where they are supposed to be. Only downside is that I can't adjust spring tension anymore.

I do suspect that there was some kind of interruption between them though because even after I stopped using your program, the throttle lights went AWOL to never come back again. Even tried re-installing the drivers to see if they would come back. Well, doesn't matter really because the lights were just green all the time anyway. The buttons work fine.

I do appreciate your effort and dedication to try working out a neat program for us IL-2 pilots. I know alof of IL-2 dudes are hooked on it, Urufu_Shinjiro at UbiZoo even stated that it is a must for G940 owners, so there you go. I have settled down with using keys for trims again though, I like to hold the stick low when flying level and straight so me involuntary adjusting the trims with my wrist was another issue. The trim-wheels would be better off placed on the side of the base IMO.

If you want, I'm sure that the Dogz would be happy to have you dropping in and fly with us sometime, Mikko. Just say the word m8!

[MikkOwl]

Very strange about that controller switching like that. MT doesn't set flaps at all (but it can set prop pitch if one sets it to). Hmm. I don't know. Maybe it is the profiler as you said. It is possible to switch axes around between mode 1, 2 and 3 in the profiler for the G940, which would totally switch the use of those things depending on what mode one was in, and depending on the mood of the profiler (Haven't had good experiences with it). The profiler itself has a major bug in it when set to "apply persistent profile" where it keeps switching to mode 1 when editing other modes, and then switching back if one happens to move any axis on the controller being set up. I'd go out on a limb and say this switching is probably not due to MT.

The throttle LEDs: are programmable (supposed to be from a game). There is a master switch for them in the windows control panel > game devices > G940 throttle > advanced (I think). MT doesn't use the master switch and it is probably not involved in your troubles. But, the G940 throttle seems to remember the last lights it was set to have. MT shuts down the lights when not in the cockpit/flying, and when exiting the program. Since nothing else is telling them to change color, they remain dark for you. Solution without MT should be to either just unplug the throttle from the comp (and the G940 stick), and then plug it in again. It does some red/green light up routine, then sticks in green mode. A better solution is to go into your program > logitech > Gaming software (if you have it) > and look for the JoystickSDK. Unpack it, and run the demo program contained within. It's a little app Logitech supplied to demonstrate the color changing features. Can set them to anything from there and they should stick until something else comes along changing them.

Trims on the base = yes, it sucks. I don't accidentally touch them, but it's a hell of a stretch to reach them with the left hand (stick is mounted on the right side, near the thigh) and to manipulate them accurately while trying to fly straight. And just forget about taking the hand off of the stick to use the right - stick will sag forward and left when released and my plane will head for the comfort of mother earth at 480km/h. In my case, I set elevator trim to R2 (throttle) and rudder to R1. Aileron can use the knob at "TRIM3" on the stick base. This sorts out the accidental stuff.

If you want trim realism, nothing beats those 900 degrees sim racing wheels set on the left in the correct position and assigned to elevator trim I'll put mine back as that for SoW for sure.

__________

I knew I forgot to mention something. The G940 stick sagging and the plane reacting like that, meant one has to fly gripping the thing the whole time if online (no pause button). That's fatiguing for the hands and plain not healthy. Also inconvenient. Even if the plane is perfectly trimmed, taking hand off stick = dive and roll left. ---- When removing the damned reversal bug from the stick in new MT, I put in a feature for locking the stick position in complete center. The pinky button toggles setting the output to center. This means if I am not maneuvering, I press the pinky once and can completely let go of the stick. Then I can work the trims to fly perfectly straight, set the engine levers right, grab a cup of tea, check email on the phone, get up and let the cat out of the room, take a piss etc... And the plane will still be flying straight when I get back (or at least hasn't nose-rolled into the ground). Moving the stick around in this mode does nothing. Tapping the pinky button again re-enables the stick movement as normal. For me, this removes a big pet peeve about the G940 stick and makes flying a -lot- more comfortable. Earlier I could barely look down on the throttle base on the low left without starting to veer off. Reading printed real maps was also a no-no (and I want to do that! Realism immersion ftw).

I'd love to fly with you people sometime. Need to get my computer back in working condition first, and hopefully get the new MT out the door with it.

[Kimosabi]

About the stick "sagging". Mine does sag insignificantly forward so wether your plane is going up or down/left or right when releasing it, greatly depends on what type of aircraft I'm flying, speed, pitch, throttle etc. I have reduced the sensitivity on it though(0-5-10-20 etc.) so that setting will allow a couple of millimeters off centre when I release it. I had to do that because flying an agile plane, wings level, like the FW190 or P-51 was basically impossible.

That centering function you have there sounds interesting......