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Flying Sunday July 9

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It was great to see so many of you show up yesterday. I think we counted 18 pilots at the high point in attendance.

What I am about to say may spark some debate but I thought I should post my observations and get some other opinions.

A couple of you remarked that you really enjoyed having so many pilots in the air. I am not sure I agree with that statement.

1. I saw a lot of warping as did others making shooting very difficult. A famous Scottish aviator who shall remain nameless was heard to say that he couldn't hit a barn door just before he left.

2. After several take off crashes following lengthy delays, I suggested to the host that he change the difficulty settings to air starts. That speeded the process up but take-offs IMHO are an essential part of the sim.

3. Chances of being killed or damaged jump considerably usually by a pilot you never even see.

4. Communication became difficult with several people talking over one another on TS. Dare I say it; some of chatter may have been unnecessary and distracting.

5. If you were killed early, it sure was a long wait until the next coop.

I have always felt that the perfect number for coops is between 8 and 10 and wonder if we shouldn't have two hosts when we get that many players.

Comments welcome.

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I didn't have much trouble last night, Except for my Personal responsibilities that abruptly took me away from the game lastnight. I think I was last seen in a P-47 in a shallow dive into the river below. hard to fly, talk on the phone, pet the dog, answer questions, and entertain guest at the same time.

I think we should start utilizing the red and blue TS rooms when the crowd gets large.

as for 2 servers, I want to fly with everyone. How much does a Kick Ass Server cost that will support all of us & TS? I would donate good money for that.

Wouldn't fix the wait time after a crash though.

Just my 2C :D

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this is a tough call Jim. von toner is spot on - I want to fly with all my mates- the numbers last night were very high and we have only seen this once before on the d-day missions. however we do seem to have a growing core of regulars.

There are some problems with splitting up the dogz-

1) orginising 2 hosts and 2 ts servers and IPs

2) we dont know who will turn up and when , so one server might be full and the other empty

3) unlikly but we might start to split the dogz up into cliques

If you want to try splitting the numbers then we would have to have a fair system for doing this however it may be the only practacle way

if we want to all fly together the solution is more difficult tho as it could mean getting a dedicated server that could handle our needs - ROG is the man to work out costings but we would have to balance this against useage and then work out a subscription to pay for it.

I believe we get large numbers on Thursdays and Sundays , I dont know about the Wednesday Fridays and Saturdays meets and I dont know if we could hire server space only at the times we need or wether it would be a full time contract

Do we know what other squadrons do in similar situations or are we now one of the bigger ones that regularly meet in this way -?

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If we all stayed on the DD server but different rooms. it wouldn't be hard to see who was in each group and balance if need be. It also wouldn't be difficult to get a second host once we saw how many pilots showed up to fly. Not sure about the clique issue or if it is even a potential issue.

A commercial server would solve the lag issue but wouldn't address the 4 other points I raised.

I know Rog has some thoughts on a dedicated server.

This may not become an issue in the future. Perhaps yesterday was just an anomaly. Just something we should keep an eye on and be prepared to adjust to.

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Sorry I couldn't stay yesterday, no sooner signed in than life called.

1) Roger's certainly aware of the problems with hosting we're having: a couple weeks ago he had everyone turn down their connection settings to ISDN to take some load off the server. Not sure it helped but it may be a battle of inches to get things right. On dialup, the stability of my ping is absolutely related to getting that setting right. If I turn it up above 2500 I immediately lose the optimum results. I had wondered if me, being the sole dialup victim at these things, was causing the problem. BTW, a truck from the telco is down the road now- it seems very likely I'll be on DSL sometime this year.

HL servers routinely handle that many folks without trouble. I do wonder if its necessary to have the server running "in console" rather than generating the game AND an image for the monitor. Crazy Ivan's got a machine for hosting and he plays on another. My guess is that we need to go that direction. Something that would make me all hot and bothered would be to take a Sunday session to a HL server that features ground targets that move the map. Why not just take our party where the real fun is? We can use our own comms and fly in somebody else's sky. If we run into cheaters the strength in numbers could at least make it clear that that's what's happening. Some of those fighter jocks would probably love an chance to try to stop a squad intent on wiping out their ground targets with a coordinated effort. If we're half as good, we just need twice as many. When we've got that many players, our arrival would set the tone of the game, probably.

If the host is running his graphic settings as high as he can offline and then hosts a game, I do wonder if that makes for real problems.

The new clouds seem to be trouble. As a troubleshooting guess, I'm thinking that when we have that many folks the server should cut out the new clouds to see if that helps.

2) I practice taking off. I crash on takeoff about once every 3 months. When we get a big group together we need to assume a minimum level of ability that should include taking off. IMHO we're all old enough (except Emann, and he's older than his years anyway) to live with the consequences of our actions and decisions and if you're crashing on takeoff you should be able to accept that you're still climbing the learning curve. If its a big server and not a less formal get-together, leave the game and spend 15 minutes doing takeoffs in the plane you just crashed while your buddies fly the mission. Isn't that one sort of obvious? Focus is the key to success in anything. No restarts for takeoff accidents would probably serve to enhance focus. I realize there's a balance between friends getting together to relax with a game and having rules like this and I value the comeraderie far more than the gameplay but there needs to be a decent line someplace on this issue. To be clear, I don't mind restarting as much as the next guy. I'm quite sure because it never raises my blood pressure. We often sit down to play with a ton of other things on our minds (we do this to relax, right?) and that makes playing consistently well a challenge. As a general rule in my life, there is always something in the real world that needs 20 minutes of attention and when I goof up I try to get something like that out of the way and rejoin the next mission. Kelly seems to handle it this way often. Some of us aren't in that position and I'm sure the wait is annoying.

3) In my opinion this is good. Immersive. Looking around you is, after all, the basic fighter pilot skill. TrackIR whines not allowed. I have used it and its great but its NOTHING my mini-stick or hat switch can't do. Get over it and get your thumbs in the fight.

4) Breaking up the game into seperate channels helps with this. Also a fact of life using radio during WWII. Perhaps we're all too polite to those who jam the frequency without regard for the timing of their color commentary. This raises my blood pressure instantly. Its like somebody talking during your backswing at the tee. Do I have a personal problem?

5) I never leave a coop on HL because I've been killed and usually learn a trick by using externals. While we're not at that level, carefully watching how another pilot plays the game is usually instructive. Watching from externals on HL is a seat in a post doc class at Air Combat University. For me, it's part of the value I got when I bought the game.

My two cents worth:

I detest "Kill the Bot" missions in cooperative play. I get to play in time that doesn't fit into any real schedule and my choices are getting schooled on HL (if I can stay connected) or flying offline which, for me, is essentially shooting and bombing practice and has lost any attraction as an activity in and of itself.

When I get together with my M8's I want a game experience I can't duplicate with my other play time, namely playing with and against other people. When we all mill about shooting at AI or groundpounding I'm reminded of a concept in child development- parallel play- where a group of children play with toys in proximity to each other but with no interaction. This is, I realize, just my opinion on this matter and where I'm "at" with the game and I apologize in advance for sitting out those missions: I don't mean to offend.

Observation: perhaps the game has become Balkanized by all the squadrons. HL has about 1/3 of the players it did when PF came out. Showing up to play on HL as a group, if it became a habit, could lead to more players deciding that's the way to go. HL isn't a reliable place for finding coops. If we used HL as a way around our hosting difficulties we could be a brick in the wall to rebuild it as a place to meet other players for coops. Maybe extending some invitations to "fellows" like Seahawk, Billfish or Aviar to join us could help rebuild a coop community.

What say ye?

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I gotta admit that the warping was getting to me a little Sunday after the third or so mid air collision occurred and all I saw on my screen was an enemy plane passing high/low and right/left. Freelancer, Acesteel, and whoever #3 was - my apologies m8s, but I really didn't see it coming.......The one time I actually thought I did collide with the enemy (Psycho's 335), in reality, he shot me to pieces in a head on run - but I never even saw him fire. Just an extremely large prop in my windscreen, then nothing but black. And, yeah - I got a little frustrated....

I'm not sure there is a way to 'fix' the problem other than to have a dedicated server running on a machine that is not being played on - and from what I understand, the IL2 dedicated server does not support coops. I really like having that many humans in the air to shoot at and be shot by, but unfortunately, lag is usually the outcome with that many people flying.

For the comms problems - I think that would be put to rest by splitting up to red and blue channels. 'Nuff said.

As far as going to hyperlobby or whatever, I guess I am not opposed to it, but wouldn't we then be at the mercy of someone else's game settings, mission choices, etc.? That could also suck the fun out of a Sunday afternoon romp pretty quickly for me. I have no experience with hyperlobby at all though, so I would have to see what it's all about before forming an opinion of it...

Just a thought...the D-Day missions we played were on a dogfight syle server using DCG or something like that, right? Why coudn't we get a seperate machine and run the dedicated server and DCG on it to get the best of both worlds? It would solve the long wait times, as you can get back in provided there are pilots available, and we could have time limits set - like on D-day - so that the missions don't drag on forever. Lag would be much better on a machine that wasn't being played on I would think......just a thought.....

EDIT : Another thought on the ded. server machine. This machine, from what I understand, would only need lots-o-ram, decent processor, and big pipes to the net, correct? I'd bet we could easily come up with enough 'donations' - either money or components, to put something together!

A group I was involved with for quite some time called AlphA Strike did this, and then designated a few members to act as administrators that could remotely log in to the machine over VNC to start it, change settings, etc. when the primary administrator wasn't around - a.k.a. - the guy with the fat pipes to his house! This setup worked extremely well for what we needed.

Anyway - my $0.02 as well........

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Phew! I missed a good night (or possibly not) last night. Family visiting again..

To the issues observed:

I'll address the easy one first, Comms.

As we are such a likeable bunch we have the propensity to chat, nothing wrong with that. It's what friends do :).

However there is Merit in using channels, one for Blues, one for Reds and one for gassing/gossip exchange WHY.

With so many pilots on-line there is almost a need for separate Wing channels too.

Either way we would need to ensure we have our button assignments set up for channel changing (I have mine set but do not remember them!).

Take offs and crashes.

Difficult, perhaps limit to one restart?

Air starts are Ok, but I too prefer the immersion derived from flying a whole mission (well OK so I rarely get to land but being killed is the end right?) including take off and landing. Warp issues can and indeed do create frustrating crashes...

Now to player numbers, and the resulting warps.

I too would not like to see the Dogz fragmented, and enough of us have enough bandwidth to theoretically support the numbers we could have flying at any one time. The issue here is one of getting the settings right.

These fall into two distinct categories:

1. Configuring the Netspeed correctly on both server and client

This is a hotly debated subject, but reading the many posts by Sparx, CrazyIvan and Hunter on the subject do tend to indicate that lowering the connection speed to ISDN or even 56k does have a beneficial effect on warp elimination.

This is done either by selecting ISDN (or 56k is probably better) in the connection section on the Netwok tab in 'Setup' in the IL2 folder, or by entering '10000' for ISDN or '5000' for 56k in the conf.ini



2. Changing some in-game settings on the server, particularly the new clouds type (only needs changing on host as it dictates to clients), AND on the clients too.

This is the difficult one, because it requires us to be realistic with regard to what our systems can comfortably handle as opposed to that which we believe they can handle, or indeed want them too!

I'm guilty in this respect, as I tend to leave my system running at 1600 x 1200. Offline this is not a problem as I can maintain very good frame rates, however online my PC has to render the information it receives from the server. So having 1600 x 1200 @ Perfect settings is more than likely contributing to some warps :(

So a standing order that dictates we do not use perfect online could well be in order!

The server, in co-op mode, of course has to work harder as it needs to assemble all the datagrams sent to and from the clients. In addition to rendering the game for the kind gent sat at the joystick! Thankfully our regular hosts are well endowed in the PC department at least :)

I propose the following be adopted as a guideline by all:

1. Set netspeed to 5000 (56k).

2. Graphics set to a maximum of 'Excellent', after all we are not sight seeing and can replay any tracks at perfect offline for screenies.

3. Make more use of the channels functionality on the TS server.

4. Try lowering the resolution to a maximum of 1024 x768 or 1280 x 960 (some already run at this or lower as it improves bogey spotting) we can individually experiment with moving this back up and monitoring warp effects.

A dedicated rented server is really only practical for Dedicated dogfight servers, it would not be possible to have a hosted server running co-ops as there is no 'console' for co-ops, it has to have full graphics capability.

The cost is prohibitive too, they start at around $100+ pm!!!

Realistically a better solution would be a well specified machine being bought and assembled, with minimum hard drive and graphics requirements but 1-2 Gb of RAM, and adopted by one of the DDs/HHs who has a good reliable and cheap (as in doesn't have to pay extra for being online 24/7) internet connection. This could run a dedicated DF server on non co-op nights too :)

If I had a decent connection I would gladly step up for this, I already have a couple of dual processor boards that will handle 12 clients :).

Thoughts gentlemen :)

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For what it's worth - it was generally accepted in the community of another online game I played alot of called Mechwarrior 4, that 56k network settings yielded the best results for no-lag online play.

I'll change my settings on that pronto - and I already run @ 1280 x 960, excellent.

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I'm pretty new to all this, but tend to agree with Sunflower:

"Why not just take our party where the real fun is? We can use our own comms and fly in somebody else's sky. If we run into cheaters the strength in numbers could at least make it clear that that's what's happening. Some of those fighter jocks would probably love an chance to try to stop a squad intent on wiping out their ground targets with a coordinated effort. If we're half as good, we just need twice as many. When we've got that many players, our arrival would set the tone of the game, probably."

I'd love to be part of a coordinated effort on one of the HL servers (Winds of War, etc). I'm a bit tired of flying these free-for-alls by myself waiting for some ace to kill me.

I've flown a couple of pick-up Coops on HL and had a pretty good time, even without comms and not knowing the other pilots. How does one go about being the host for a HL Coop?

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I didn't realize that the ded server wouldn't run coops, I wonder why it is that CI has himself set up that way? and how he gets those results without making everyone turn their connection speed down?

The gameplay on his server is excellent with many players and I think several of our players have machines that are pretty much top-of-the line. We should be able to get it going.

"As far as going to hyperlobby or whatever, I guess I am not opposed to it, but wouldn't we then be at the mercy of someone else's game settings, mission choices, etc.?"

Well, sort of, except that there are so many servers that you can find just about anything you want in terms of settings. As far as missions go, a dogfight map will often have ground targets that must be destroyed to "win the map." In this sense, its like the D-Day missions of DoubleTap's that proved to be quite a bit of fun. The up-side is that nobody sits around waiting AND there is something that lends coherance to the game- a goal. Some, if not most, HL flyers can't be bothered with that sort of stuff and simply hunt whatever they can. Consider them "uber AI." Each map stays "up" for an hour or two and then the next map "rotates" into play. Some maps I like quite a bit and when some come up I leave. If I understand correctly, the maps rotate in order so it would be possible to pick map that would lend itself to our group and arrive en masse just as the map comes up in the rotation. Again, its really quite a bit like what we saw with DoubleTap's stuff. Good fun and it doesn't have to be the only thing we do. Out of a 5-6 hour session, perhaps 1/3 could be spent on one HL df map. We could publish the settings/planesets/goals of each map and take a poll to see which one people would like to fly. Plenty of planes for groundpounding, for sure.

This of course is a way 'round the server problem, not a solution. My tastes have evolved towards smooth gameplay over eye-candy and I play 1280-1024/excellent settings at all times. Might have a bit of a trouble getting Quazi to play that way- he thinks the water looks like outdoor carpet!

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If you click on the top slot in a coop room you'll be the host, so its available at all times for anyone with the game. Not having enough bandwidth to host, that's all I know about it. Ah yes, Knutsac, that is what my HL experience is, too. Its a fine thing in moderate doses because you get better but its so one-dimensional in terms of what happens that as entertainment it goes dry in a couple hours for me. Certainly good for learning what works and what doesn't.

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Crazy Ivan has a ultra fast High Speed connection with something like 14 Mbps down. He posted a speed test on General Discussion a couple of months ago.

I hope to get a similiar connection within the month.

Animal in the UK has a 10 Mbps connection and we might get him set up to do some hosting for us, right Kling?

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Roger, are you understanding what it is that makes all that bandwidth necessary when it does appear that a very small amount is actually necessary?

People said, "don't worry, dialup will play fine" and they were exactly right. At 26.6 kbps I can play for hours without seeing a warp or lag and not once has anyone complained that I'm hard to hit.

Seems like 14mbps wouldn't be necessary but apparently it is. Is that to have enough bandwidth to supply all the clients who are demanding a LAN speed connection?

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I am away out of my depth on this but it seems to me the host has to have a ton of bandwidth to handle 18 players. I can just imagine the packets flying backwards and forwards from 18 pilots. On the other hand a client on dial up is only concerned about his up and down to the host. If the host gets strained you get lost packets and lag.

Based on my own experience, in addition to speed you need stability. My first provider had me hopping from tower to tower for several hundred miles. Each hop carries packet loss risk. My new ISP will have me going to one tower 23 kms away then into fibre optic cable.

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I'm very sorry to hear some folks didn't have a good night last coop....

Second mission was a "test" for me (to see if my pc could handle it), 'cause it was a mission that required good connections and pc's...played that particular mission a few times already, with only up to no more then 5 players, without lag-warping....

And all I can say is this....

These are the specs on my 5 month old pc;

Powersource = Chieftec midi black 650 W

CPU = AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Socker 939

Main = AMD - ASUS A8N-E Nforce4 ultra PCX S939

Ram = 2x DDR RAM 521 MB, PC400 - LFT = 1042 RAM!!

VGA = Radeon X800Pro 256 MB

HD = 200GB, 7200RPM, 8MB, 3Y, SER-ATA 8.5ms

Now gentlemen, on top of that, and I just checked my internet settings, I'm on a 100,0 Mbps connection....

Again, my settings are on ISDN, and yes, I have excellent settings in game, got the VGA and the pc for it, so why not use it....

To my humble opinion, check your pc's, or check your settings...if someone from accross the ocean hosts, all Euro players have higher pings, vice versa is also true, I have seen warping on my pc, when I was not hosting, but playing on a server hosted accross the ocean...my point is this....for a very demanding game, one is always depending on good connections, which some off em go around the globe, to come back in next door sorta speaking....

Dial-up is a pain, yes, but it is the clients with lan-cable who suffer the lag in on-line gaming, lesser experienced by dial-up....

Not to flame, but the US is limping behind with connections, they are in the first fase of cable, while we in Europe are already upgrading to level 2, gentlemen, the true reason for lagging IMHO, is nothing BUT the connection...if the pipeline is full, no fast (er) pc that can do anything about it....*points finger at useless spamming going around the globe*

The point about the radiochatter;

Some games I have great communication with the rest of the team, which lead to adrenaline-pumping, breathtaking games for me...

In respect to the non Joint-ops flyers, I kinda hold myself back from all the "A militari" chatter, just to not offend anyone, and second, to give the game a tad of joy, joke right and left, you know.....

Communication is good, and can get very loud (especcially when Psycho joins in :) ) and I can't help it, but I like to add the "occasional fling", what I don't do, and don't approve, is the "story off my live" going on in middle off the battle or just before, so I cannot call out the position off the bogie nor the help needed....but hey, it's a game right?... and with real people......

The airstart was implemented on request, I want nothing more then groundstarts....

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Sged..none of this was a criticism of you or your hosting!

It is generally, if not 100%, accepted that the lag/warp issues are down to client config.

The bandwidth requirement is to service multiple clients, I tried to get a number on the per client requirements Sunflower. So that a multiple could be arrived at that would give an indication of the requirements for 10, 20 hoists etc.

But this does not seem to be readily available.

As we are a tight knit group we have it in our powers to experiment with the settings and arrive at a config that will enable smooth lag free play for us all.

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But that's my point, the pipeline can't be full if each client only needs 1.5 kbps. Its not a connection issue but a timing issue within the game code. As we discovered with BG's setup, its stability that is key, not bandwidth. Just because a p;ayer can ASK for more bandwidth because a player has a strong connection doesn't mean its needed or used and perhaps that's what's causing the timing problem- not a full pipe but too many that are nearly empty and they compete for a limited time window into which the packets must go if no warping is to happen. Perhaps turning the client speeds down gives more people a turn at a proper link with the server.

If 1.5kbps gives seamless gameplay and each client is only asking for that (or 3.0) then we're not limited by the bandwidth in any sense. Consider this: when I ask for more bandwidth than I can use, MY gameplay deteriorates. I'll hazard a guess that anyone can get seamless gameplay at NET=2500.

Those comments about the US aren't flaming, they're fact. The state of telecommunications in the United States is simply terrible and unlikely to get any better until the utility companies can roll out their product. The Telecom Act of 1996 caused an absolutely epic amount of capital to be wasted and the balance sheets and nerves of the players are only just beginning to recover. Balancing the interests of the bond holders in the SONET ring telecom gear with the interests of moving into the 21st century is the sort of thing that can get politicians excited to go to work. You'd have to kill off all the old ma Bell bondholders to actually make progress and it just isn't going to happen if not at the point of a gun.

We have politicians who'd like to make the internet captive to each provider in this country- like a cable network. So it could actually get worse.

I'm thinking that Roger is on the right track. Our boxes get bogged down running hardware shaders, etc and the timing of the packets becomes impossible to execute smoothly.

I have an X800XL and its not up to Perfect in my estimation but I see people on the UBI forum say that they play in Perfect with the card at the same resolution that I do. I can't take the little stutters, even offline.

There's no complaint about your rig Sged, we see this on more powerful machines too.

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sged m8. Please do not take this personally. It was not intended to be a criticism of your connection or your hosting. If it came across that way then I apologize. Your contribution in hosting is greatly appreciated as it is for all the other hosters.

I started this thread to find out what the group thought about how we should handle the increase in numbers and the consequences of it. There has been some excellent input and suggestions from the group and I hope there will be more. As the host, you can set your own rules so if you want to include takeoffs then so be it.

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Dead on Jim, Animal (Neil) is willing and able rig wise. All we have to to is figure out how. :? (router). We are good chippies but useless with computers. Your link is gonna be a big help.

I agree the comms became useless tactically, but good entertainment. Seperate blue and red for sure.

Air starts for bombers, runway for fighters.

It is obviously a pain to sit around for 20mins, waiting for the mission to end. With that many on, the game becomes a little different. Flip side of that is that survivers are guilt tripped into calling it.

Maybe it would suit a mission oriented dogfight if more than,say, 12 pilots.

Didn't experience severe warping, but I'm closer to Sged's server than many of you. Noticed Sged's comms breaking up a bit though.

All that aside, its great flying with as many as possible.


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My NET= line in the conf.ini was at a whopping 25000!

Now changed to 5000. We'll see how it goes. I gotta think 25000 was waaaayyyy too high though.....

Sged - I highly doubt that any of the problems were your fault mate. If it sounded that way, I did not intend for it to be so at all.

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Argh, I tripped myself in a hornets nest...do have long toes guys these days....sorry....former reply edited

I appologyse for any insult not meant to be...

About the comm's thing Kling.......lately I experience a great deal of instability in TS, everyone is breaking up from time to time....not only on Quazi's TS, also the JO TS suffers from it...somethimes it kicks me for no apparent reason (had this last saturday on JO class, incl. Klinger I believe)

I want to know if this is my connection-pc settings- or is it plainly a bug?

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:salute: Yesterday was a lot of fun, a couple times it warped, but not drastically. I think closing our membership again will help. Using both Red & Blue Freqs, this also aides in attacks, in that you can set up plans and the other side isn't able to block your tactics. Only one other time (not counting the DDay Extravaganza) do I recall a gathering at one time of over 15 players. My nickels worth (you can't buy anything for a penny anymore) is lets see if this happens again, make plans fine, but see if it occurs another time.

Sqed, your hosting is right up there with BG, Glenn and Kelly.

Nothing new here, my opinion and I get to see the Red Pooka Dog.

See you tomorrow or Thursday. Pooka

ps...just noticed I'm a Major, does this make me in charge of something, more pay??

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Spent the day with the wife yesterday, and probably for the best as you guys had a full load. But I want to remind everyone of the "whisper" function in the TS client that could help the talking on top of each other. I know it would just be more to map, but this feature may come in handy to be able to get pertinent information to a particular m8 in the heat of battle when alot of m8s are speaking.

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The more live players the better, to my way of thinking.

That said, I ended up sightseeing for the most part last evening as the lag was really bad for me. Every time I patiently set up a shot I would get warp. Even trying to stay in formation became frustrating. My network settings were at cable/xDSL so that may have been the problem. I have now changed to 56k.

As for comms, I noticed not everyone uses the Push-to-Talk option. It can be a little distracting hearing every burp, fart and phone call when there is such an easy fix.

As nice as it is to admire each others skins, it does use a lot of bandwidth to have them on. And with icons enabled there is no real need.

I also think that, as it is the exception rather that the rule to see that many players on, there is no need for a drastic knee-jerk solution. There is plenty of time to get these little wrinkles worked out before 20 player evenings become the norm.

And I look forward to the time when 20 player nights are standard.



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