Dresden and misinformation

[JensenPark]

“The bigger the lie, the more likelihood of it being

believed.â€

[Enforcer57]

Finally! There was no city in Germany that wasn't a military target, or Japan for htat matter. I've always argued with revisionists who badm0outhed the allies for bombing that place....none of htem knew enough about history to know who CHurchill and Harris were, as usual.

The blame rests with Adolph and the morons who allowed his rise to power, not Harris or Churchill. The very idea of how Harris was villified after the war for helping to win the damn thing still pisses me off.

God I hate pacifists and revisionists. Don't count on this gettting much exposure in England or the US.

[Cold_Gambler]

First off, let me preface my comment with a little background:

I do not disagree with Bomber Harris' decision to bomb German cities. The Germans did precisely the same (starting with Guernica, then Warsaw, then Amsterdam, not to mention the Blitz) and the only reason they didn't succeed as well as the Allies is because they didn't have the means to carry sufficient incendiary bombloads to create firestorm conditions. To quote Churchill, the German's merely reaped the whirlwind they had sown themselves. They got the "total war" the nazis said was necessary.

That said, I think that Dresden is more controversial than, say, Hamburg's firebombing, is because the firebombing of Dresden came at the tail-end of the war, a mere three months before unconditional surrender. The German war machine was already in disarray at that point. As an example, the U-boats had lost their harbours in France, and got sunk by radar as soon as they popped their Zeiss-equipped periscopes up. That being the case, I think the Dresden bombing can be argued to have been unnecessary overkill.

As for Attlee and Churchill getting roasted in the H of P for Dresden's bombing... well, that was just peace-time politics getting back to "normal".

My 2cents.

[Jabo]

First off, let me preface my comment with a little background:

I do not disagree with Bomber Harris' decision to bomb German cities. The Germans did precisely the same (starting with Guernica, then Warsaw, then Amsterdam, not to mention the Blitz) and the only reason they didn't succeed as well as the Allies is because they didn't have the means to carry sufficient incendiary bombloads to create firestorm conditions. To quote Churchill, the German's merely reaped the whirlwind they had sown themselves. They got the "total war" the nazis said was necessary.

That said, I think that Dresden is more controversial than, say, Hamburg's firebombing, is because the firebombing of Dresden came at the tail-end of the war, a mere three months before unconditional surrender. The German war machine was already in disarray at that point. As an example, the U-boats had lost their harbours in France, and got sunk by radar as soon as they popped their Zeiss-equipped periscopes up. That being the case, I think the Dresden bombing can be argued to have been unnecessary overkill.

As for Attlee and Churchill getting roasted in the H of P for Dresden's bombing... well, that was just peace-time politics getting back to "normal".

My 2cents.

Fair comment C_G, Dresden is controversial because it came only shortly before the war ended, but don't forget that at that time nobody knew when the war would end especially as Hitler had already promised a 'slash and burn' retreat across the Reich, at the expense of who knows how many Allied, Axis and civilian lives ergo Dresden, Pfzorhiem and all the other smaller targets were viewed as necessary.

Much as I'm not a fan of the area bombing campaign, there seems little doubt that without the strategic bombing carried out by the USAAF and the RAF, the war could well have gone on longer and cost many more lives.

On a related note Harris' nickname 'Butch' was given to him by the crews he commanded not because he was a butcher of the Germans or Germany, but rather of the RAF.

[DoubleTap]

Thanks JP, for the info.

[Stingray]

I was in Dresden about a year ago for a conference shortly after having read Slaughter House 5 for the first time, it was needless to say a very surreal experience, having just learned about the firebombing of Dresden and reading Slaughter House 5, then a few days later being there.

[JensenPark]

I always find it 'funny' to judge past war actions from our current point of view.

[Klinger]

I always find it 'funny' to judge past war actions from our current point of view.

Agreed!

Harris, like Churchill, Monty, and Patton etc, were ruthless, driven men who used all the assets at their disposal

to win the war that had to be won. Perhaps they didn't have the luxury of feeling to much sympathy for the innocent if they were to

do such demanding work.

The Russians were putting pressure on the western allies to invade France. The Americans and Brits needed more time to prepare.

The bombing war was a second front that cost Germany its air force, and a lot of materiel destined for France '44.

The British bomber crews themselves had a hard time about the deaths of civilians, but saw it as necessary, and got on with the job.

The Americans may not have felt so bad on that score, with the accurate targetting they could achieve in daylight.

Very brave men all.

Dresden was tragic whatever the numbers.

It would be nice to go back to 1938 with todays precision weapons and just take out the bad guys.

[BadAim]

It would be nice to go back to 1938 with todays precision weapons and just take out the bad guys.

Forcing the issue in chzecoslovakia would have gone a long way, a lot of lives could have been saved. On all sides.

[Jabo]

The British bomber crews themselves had a hard time about the deaths of civilians, but saw it as necessary, and got on with the job.

The Americans may not have felt so bad on that score, with the accurate targetting they could achieve in daylight.

Aha - the old area bombing vs precision targeting debate - the point being that back then, no matter how good a bombadier you might have been, day or night, it is not possible for every aircraft in a hundred mile long bomber stream to put every bomb in the same pickle barrel from several miles up. However, the USAAF maintained that they were aiming at precision targets and a proportion of the bombs would fall elsewhere whereas the RAF said they were levelling the cities to be sure of hitting the targets - I suspect that for the poor buggers on the ground there wasn't much to choose between the two but Bomber Command was demonised after the war at least partly because of the way their strategy was explained.

My main problem here though is the abandonment of Bomber Command by the Government as soon as VE day came - Churchill's victory speech made mention of pretty much every part of our armed forces but not Bomber Command, there was and will never be a campaign medal for the men of Bomber Command and precious little mention of the 55,000 aircrew killed on ops either.

Jabo

[Klinger]

~S~ Jabo, my father was ground crew in a Wellington squadron WW2. That was his attitude towards the bombing. I can't speak for the Americans.

Dad was not concerned about medals and such. Post war he hated all things military, and would never even wear black shoes again. Maybe he was unusual.

What I meant was that a lot of what went down late war was to do with how much of Europe the USSR would control, post war.

Perhaps there was something in Dresden the allies didn't want the Russians to have.

Cheers.

[Guest DD_Merdog]

~S~ All

[Jabo]

~S~ Jabo, my father was ground crew in a Wellington squadron WW2. That was his attitude towards the bombing. I can't speak for the Americans.

Dad was not concerned about medals and such. Post war he hated all things military, and would never even wear black shoes again. Maybe he was unusual.

What I meant was that a lot of what went down late war was to do with how much of Europe the USSR would control, post war.

Perhaps there was something in Dresden the allies didn't want the Russians to have.

Cheers.

Sorry Kling, I wasn't denying your point, it's just that the treatment of Bomber Command personnel after the war makes my blood boil. Like you, I had a family member in BC (also involved with Wellingtons coincidentally), although he was destined to become one of the 55,000. I don't believe that anyone who were involved in the raids on Germany liked the idea of bombing civilians, but as you say they saw it as necessary at the time.

It is interesting though that 'normal' politics was starting to rear it's head before the war had even finished and the Western Allies were realising that a) Germany was pretty much trashed end-to-end and that they would be paying to put things right and also that Soviet expansionists were eyeing Eastern Europe as a buffer area. We went straight from one war to another albeit a 'cold' one.

~S~ Jabo